Toto

An interesting podcast:

http://podacre.blogspot.com/2011/01/...sus-exist.html

Goodacre say lots of nice things about mythicists, speaks of Timothy Freke with respect, says he had a nice chat with Wells, mythicists keep him honest.

But then he ends by saying that mythicism is an unhealthy hyperskepticism, because then you would have to doubt the existence of people like Pilate, John the Baptist . . .

There's no new information in the podcast, but there is a somewhat different tone than the anti-mythicist polemics of a few prominent historicists.

Steven Carr

I asked Mark where the scepticism should stop? At Jesus? At Judas? At Lazarus? At the magi who visited Jesus? The lepers Jesus healed?

He gave no response.

I don't know if that means he believes everybody in the Gospels existed, because to doubt Jesus is to doubt the existence of the lepers Jesus healed.

I don't know what to make of his inability to say what the criterion for attestation of existence are.

I was puzzled by the way he seemed to duck all questions on the thread.

When a poster pointed out all the bits in Paul that are baffling, he was met with 'We read things differently' and 'Paul accepts the miraculous.' 'There is a lot of Jesus tradition in Paul's letters.'

Mere assertion, and an inability to address the points made by mythicists....

Perhaps he was too busy to address the actual points made or to state what all this Jesus tradition in Paul's letters was.

Doug Shaver

And that seems to be very easy to say.

I do not doubt the existence of Pilate or John the Baptist, but I doubt Jesus' existence. I would challenge Goodacre to show me exactly how and where I am being inconsistent, but I would not expect him to take the time to do so.

Juststeve

Doug:

What us the evidence of John The Baptist that is immune from the claim that he is a christian fiction or a christian interpolation into the works of others?

Steve

spin

I'm not Doug, but we have two demonstrably independent witnesses to JtB in 1) the gospels and 2) Josephus. They both attest to the arrest and death of JtB at the hands of Herod Antipas, but they tell the story in strikingly different manners. One tells us he was arrested "on account of Herodias", while the other tells us it was out of Herod's fear of sedition. The Josephan account also provides an important indicator, telling us that JtB was taken to Machaerus, where he was executed, creating conflict with the dance bringing about JtB's death, for they would have had to be in Machaerus for the gospel account to function, if the Josephan account is correct. This fact plus the previous difference shows that the two sources are distinct.


spin

Juststeve

Spin:

You are correct about multiple attestations to John The Baptist but there are multiple attestation to Jesus as well. Like Josephus there is are the gospels, and Josephus, there is also Tacitus. While I share most people's doubts about at least some of Josephus in the Jewish Wars, I see little reason to discount what Josephus wrote in Antiquities. These are quite a few refernces for a private person from the first century.

Steve

Meatros

I can't view the link from where I'm at now - is the podcast available on iTunes?

Steven Carr

One reason also is that 'Luke' was able to find a date for events in the life of John the Baptist but could not produce any date for any event in the life of Jesus. He couldn't even track down Jesus having a brother called James.

spin

You misunderstand the way one deals with the issue. I clearly stated, "we have two demonstrably independent witnesses to JtB". It is not sufficient that you have two or more texts that say something. You must be able to supply indications that they are independent. I succinctly did so for the attestations in Josephus and the gospels. There are clearly things that Josephus knew that the christian sources couldn't supply.

Elsewhere I have shown that such independence of attestations has not been established for Jesus.


spin

Zaphod

Is there extra-biblical independent attestation for any of the important characters relevant to Christian origins besides some Roman magistrates?