Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Back Again · 10-27-2009, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newfie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Indeed

The Holy Ghost is the 3rd part of the Godhead trinity. God being first, Jesus second then the Holy Ghost.

So the members of the trinity are not equal?

They are three aspects of the same person. It doesn't even make sense to compare them.

All we know is:

The Father is God
The Son is God
The Holy Spirit is God
The Father is not The Son is not The Holy Spirit
The Son is not The Father is not The Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is not The Father is not The Son
There is only one God.

Earl IV · 10-27-2009, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Back Again

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earl IV

Considering all that, I'd say the spook is of little importance.

It was apparently very important to the theology of the "winners". Why? I expect it had to do with the Man/God nature of Christ or the impregnation of Mary.

I really wish a Mod would move this over to BC&H.

Why then, take 400 years to come up with the idea?

Back Again · 10-27-2009, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earl IV

Why then, take 400 years to come up with the idea?

First of all, Christianity was a lot younger than 400 years in 400CE. Presumably it took a long time for the "winners" to win and a little longer to slip it in the holy texts.

Toto · 10-27-2009, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeeEss

Where does this aspect of god fit into christianity? I hear that the Koran mentions the trinity including Mary but, not the holy ghost. I find that completely understandable considering the lack of mention for the most part. Was there an absolute necessity for three aspects?

The Qur'an is strictly monotheistic. The Qur'anic Jesus is a prophet, born of the virgin Mary and raised from the dead, but he is not part of the godhead. Mary was not part of the Trinity the last I heard, although the Catholic Church did place her in heaven, and able to perform godlike functions.

The Trinity is not part of the Bible. It is later Christian doctrine, and it is part of the mystery (three is a mystical magical number), not actually meant to be understood, although you can find a lot of discussion around it.

Free Indeed · 10-27-2009, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Back Again

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Indeed

I am glad someone asked such an important theological question that I can help clear up. You see I am very familiar with the Holy Ghost and converse with him daily. The Holy Ghost is the 3rd part of the Godhead trinity. God being first, Jesus second then the Holy Ghost. Here is how it works for a Christian, God predestins us, Jesus saves us and the Holy Ghost seals us for eternity.

The Holy Ghost's jobs is to point to Jesus, convict us of our sins, regenerate believers at the point of salvation, and to be a gurantee of our salvation.

So the personification of the Holy Ghost was self evident to the early Church fathers presumably because they were also having regular conversations with him?

We would expect that early Church fathers would have dealt with the heretical Unitarians and Binitarians by saying that the Holy Spirit is clearly a person since they talk to Him. That's interesting and should be supported by their writing.

They knew about the personificaiton of the Holy Spirit. Acts 11:12 The Holy Spirit told me to go with them and not to worry that they were Gentiles.

Luke 12:12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what needs to be said."

John 14:1 He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him,

DancesWithCoffeeCups · 10-27-2009, 12:26 PM

I'd happily move this to BC&H, but we'd be strictly discussing the texts. All discussions with the spirit him/herself would need to remain here.

What say ye?

DWCC

Newfie · 10-27-2009, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Back Again

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newfie

So the members of the trinity are not equal?

They are three aspects of the same person. It doesn't even make sense to compare them.

All we know is:

The Father is God
The Son is God
The Holy Spirit is God
The Father is not The Son is not The Holy Spirit
The Son is not The Father is not The Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is not The Father is not The Son
There is only one God.

Sure you can compare aspects of the same person. Joe Blow could be a loving parent, a terrible son to his aged parents and an ineffectual employee all wrapped up in one package, for example.

Also, from wiki

Quote:

There are some Christian groups who teach that the Holy Spirit is feminine, or has feminine aspects. Most are based on the genders of the verbs in the original Bible languages where the Holy Spirit is the subject. In Hebrew the word for spirit (ruach) is feminine.[28] In Greek the word (pneuma) is neuter,[28] and in Aramaic, the language which is generally considered to have been spoken by Jesus, the word is feminine. This is not thought by most linguists to have significance for the gender of the person given that name. There are biblical cases where the pronoun used for the Holy Spirit is masculine, in contradiction of the gender of the word for spirit (John 16:13).[2

Would someone be justified in seeing the HS as God's nurturing, feminine side then?

Toto · 10-27-2009, 12:44 PM

Spirit in feminine in Hebrew, but in the first century CE the Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo proclaimed that the spirit must be masculine, and Christians have followed him.

People can see anything they want as God's feminine nurturing side, if they think that there is such a thing. But that is not supported by the Bible or the texts.

Newfie · 10-27-2009, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The Qur'an is strictly monotheistic. The Qur'anic Jesus is a prophet, born of the virgin Mary and raised from the dead, but he is not part of the godhead. Mary was not part of the Trinity the last I heard, although the Catholic Church did place her in heaven, and able to perform godlike functions.

Mary doesn't have any more power than the average mother has in getting her son to do favours for her. Catholic's just believe that Jesus was more of a mamma's boy than protestants do.

Back Again · 10-27-2009, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DancesWithCoffeeCups

I'd happily move this to BC&H, but we'd be strictly discussing the texts. All discussions with the spirit him/herself would need to remain here.

What say ye?

DWCC

From the original post it's not completely obvious whether DeeEss is asking about what the theology is or the scriptural support for the theology. Toto answered (I think) his original question while I created and chased a tangent. My vote is to move it.

Free Indeed has presented scriptural evidence of personification of the Spirit which I am unqualified to dispute. I know that plenty of other "Christianities" were not swayed by this. Perhaps the personification was a literary device. Perhaps it's not such a "slam dunk" in the original Greek.

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10-27-2009, 12:26 PM	#16
DancesWithCoffeeCups Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Pacific Northwest Posts: 8,077	I'd happily move this to BC&H, but we'd be strictly discussing the texts. All discussions with the spirit him/herself would need to remain here. What say ye? DWCC

10-27-2009, 12:44 PM	#18
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Spirit in feminine in Hebrew, but in the first century CE the Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo proclaimed that the spirit must be masculine, and Christians have followed him. People can see anything they want as God's feminine nurturing side, if they think that there is such a thing. But that is not supported by the Bible or the texts.

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