Freethought & Rationalism Archive

thief of fire · 05-03-2012, 05:57 PM

Are there any passages in the Pauline epistles which are not possible interplotaions? It seems like just about anything could be an interpolation, no?

Toto · 05-03-2012, 06:15 PM

Yes, any given passage could be interpolated, since we have no authenticated originals to prove that any passage is original.

But there are considerations that used to guage the degree of probability that a passage is interpolated.

You might want to look at William O. Walker's Interpolations in the Pauline Letters (or via: amazon.co.uk).

There is an extensive preview on google books, or you can check my summary in the archives here

aa5874 · 05-03-2012, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Yes, any given passage could be interpolated, since we have no authenticated originals to prove that any passage is original.

But there are considerations that used to guage the degree of probability that a passage is interpolated.

You might want to look at William O. Walker's Interpolations in the Pauline Letters (or via: amazon.co.uk).

There is an extensive preview on google books, or you can check my summary in the archives here

When we don't know what Paul wrote or when he wrote or who really wrote them then it boggles the mind that the Pauline writings are Presumed to be authentic under such questionable scenario.

yalla · 05-03-2012, 06:29 PM

Well, some christian scholars of christianity would claim that most or all of the Pauline epistles were "interpolated' in the semse that they were not 'genuine' epistles of Paul.
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_criticism
"Radical Criticism is a movement around the late 19th century that, typically, denied authentic authorship of the Pauline epistles. This went beyond the higher criticism of the Tübingen school which (with the exception of Bruno Bauer) held that a core of at least four epistles had been written by Paul of Tarsus in the 1st century"

thief of fire · 05-03-2012, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

There is an extensive preview on google books, or you can check my summary in the archives here

Thanks Toto,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Why is there no surviving text critical evidence of variant readings? Walker replies with a question. Why are there no early texts of any Pauline letters? And no earlier collections? It is clear, he says that Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Polycarp and the author of 2 Peter were acquainted with more than one letter [unless, of course, those references were forged, something that should be considered, especially with Ignatius]

This seems to be an indication of some real evidence (that there were different versions anyway). What does it consist of?

Toto · 05-03-2012, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thief of fire

...

This seems to be an indication of some real evidence (that there were different versions anyway). What does it consist of?

Quotations of Paul's letters in those other sources.

aa5874 · 05-03-2012, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by thief of fire

...

This seems to be an indication of some real evidence (that there were different versions anyway). What does it consist of?

Quotations of Paul's letters in those other sources.

There are quotations of the Epistles to Timothy in some of those very sources.

One cannot presume authenticity and still admit the same authentic letters were manipulated without knowing what is original or that the Pauline writer could NOT have written the letters as they are.

All presumptions about the Pauline letters are of no help in any serious inquiry.

thief of fire · 05-03-2012, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by thief of fire

...

This seems to be an indication of some real evidence (that there were different versions anyway). What does it consist of?

Quotations of Paul's letters in those other sources.

I misunderstood actually. I thought you were saying there were different version of pauls letters quoted (my bad).

Toto · 05-03-2012, 09:42 PM

The quotations indicate that there were different versions of Paul's letters.

We know that Marcion had his own version of Paul's letters, although it has not survived. The proto-orthodox church charged that Marcion cut things out of the letters, but most unbiased scholars think that the church also added material to the letters to counter Marcion.

thief of fire · 05-03-2012, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The quotations indicate that there were different versions of Paul's letters.

.

Ok. Which quotations from Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Polycarp and the author of 2 Peter indicate alternate versions of Pauls letters? Or are you merely referring to Marcion, and the verion is is said to have had?

05-03-2012, 05:57 PM	#1
thief of fire Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: springfield Posts: 1,140	Non interpolations in Paul Are there any passages in the Pauline epistles which are not possible interplotaions? It seems like just about anything could be an interpolation, no?

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05-03-2012, 06:15 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Yes, any given passage could be interpolated, since we have no authenticated originals to prove that any passage is original. But there are considerations that used to guage the degree of probability that a passage is interpolated. You might want to look at William O. Walker's Interpolations in the Pauline Letters (or via: amazon.co.uk). There is an extensive preview on google books, or you can check my summary in the archives here

05-03-2012, 06:29 PM	#4
yalla Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: oz Posts: 1,848	Well, some christian scholars of christianity would claim that most or all of the Pauline epistles were "interpolated' in the semse that they were not 'genuine' epistles of Paul. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_criticism "Radical Criticism is a movement around the late 19th century that, typically, denied authentic authorship of the Pauline epistles. This went beyond the higher criticism of the Tübingen school which (with the exception of Bruno Bauer) held that a core of at least four epistles had been written by Paul of Tarsus in the 1st century"

05-03-2012, 09:42 PM	#9
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The quotations indicate that there were different versions of Paul's letters. We know that Marcion had his own version of Paul's letters, although it has not survived. The proto-orthodox church charged that Marcion cut things out of the letters, but most unbiased scholars think that the church also added material to the letters to counter Marcion.

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