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Freethought & Rationalism ArchiveThe archives are read only. |
08-22-2004, 09:30 PM
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#11 |
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Is it true that early christian leaders were aware of these simularities and that they claimed that Satan, knowing the future, orchestrated these religions to confuse future peoples?? Is this true? Can some one give me reliable documentation.
Thanks and if this isnt a scholarly enough topic for this board please let me know or feel free to move this to its appropriate baord and thanks all for the replys and links, quotes, ect. ect. I am running into the response that "Only Myther sites say that. There are really no simularities. none at all. " But then their proof is some theistic fundy website like Tecktonics or something. I just want to know the truth. Are there signifigant simularities or are there not?? Its proven to be an elusive question. |
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08-22-2004, 09:51 PM
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#12 | |
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Here is some of Roger Viklund's work:
Quote:
best, Peter Kirby |
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08-22-2004, 11:44 PM
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#13 |
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SkepticBoyLee,
This site has some pretty compelling information: http://www.medmalexperts.com/POCM/ge...rted_pocm.html Something to keep in mind is that the earliest Christian apologists recognized the similarities between their religion and the earlier religions. They had to explain to the pagans why Christianity was not a copy of the earlier religions. One of the rationalizations they came up with was this: Satan had anticipated Christianity, and had created the earlier religions to confuse people and keep them from accepting that Chrisitanity was true: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa.htm "'The devil, whose business is to pervert the truth, mimics the exact circumstances of the Divine Sacraments...Thus he celebrates the oblation of bread, and brings in the symbol of the resurrection. Let us therefore acknowledge the craftiness of the devil, who copies certain things of those that be Divine.' Tertullian, late 2nd century CE, commenting on the many similarities between Mithraism and Christianity." Also from the religious tolerance site: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa1.htm "There are many possible explanations of the similarities between earlier Pagan and later Christian beliefs, practices, and the lives of their god-men:" {snip} "Satan did it to deceive: Various early church writers, such as Irenaeus (Bishop of Lyons; circa 120 CE to ?) Justin Martyr (Christian apologist; 100 to 165), Tertullian (Christian theologian; circa 160 to 220 +) concluded that the Pagan/Christian similarities were a Satanic attempt at "diabolical mimicry." Satan was said to have use "plagiarism by anticipation." That is, the Devil made a pre-emptive strike against the gospel stories centuries before Jesus was born. The reason was to confuse the public into thinking that Jesus was merely a copy of previous god-men. The goal was to demolish the credibility of Christianity in the people's eyes." Brooks |
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08-23-2004, 12:40 AM
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#14 |
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Sup Brooks, I am also known as "HellfireboundLee" on your baord.
Christians trash POMC as shabby scholarship. The dyonysis picture I posted was from there and I SWEAR it originally said "200 years BEFORE" christ. Im certain of it. He (the POCM guys) must have gotten emails about it proving it wrong or dubius and subsequently took that caption out. As for the article that Mr. Kriby posted I used it in a discussion and I shall post the theists reposnse. This theist is dyslexic, or cliams to be and spells like crap but you cant still tell what he is writing. Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From the work of Roger Viklund -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Never heard of him... pressing on though he makes tonnes of errors that orives you havent read the classics... Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- commenting on Hercules and his simularity to Jesus Christ "There are points of close similarity between the life of Jesus and the life of Heracles. Heracles’ mother Alcmene is, like so many other mothers of gods, a virgin when she gives birth to Heracles. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No xhe wsn;t. dfr starters she was married... and had ben for a while...liekwise Zeus, after asumign her husbands frm, so satsfied her her husband no longer could... Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- His father is the mighty god Zeus (Hesiod, [8th century BCE], Theogonia, 943 [Loeb]). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- True, but Zeus had hasd sex with Alcemene to father Herculese, so its not a Virgin Birth... Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just like Jesus, Heracles has a mortal stepfather (Amphitryon). But like Joseph (Matth 2:4ff), Amphitryon does not have sexual intercourse with his wife until after the divine conception has taken place. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Odd he makes no reference to where htis can be found. Silly, especially since all forms of the Herculese Myth I have ever heard has this as false. See, Herculese had a twin, Iphacelse, whose father was Aphitriton. If he refraied form Sexual intercoruse with his wife till after Herculese was dilevered, how do you explain the twin??? Sorry, this is an outright lie, easily confirmed if you have a dictoonary of Mythology. Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Heracles’ mortal parents make a trip from their hometown Mycenae, to Thebes, where Zeus makes Alcmene pregnant and she gives birth to Heracles (Homer, The Iliad, 19:95-99 [Loeb]). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- False. Her husband is off to war, Zeus impersonates her husband and sleeps with her in her own house. Their is no trip. As tot he Bogus Reference to the Iliad, here is what Book 19 Verses 95-99 relaly say... Then Agamemnon spoke, rising in his place, and not going into the middle of the assembly. "Danaan heroes," said he, "servants of Mars, it is well to listen when a man stands up to speak, and it is not seemly to interrupt him, or it will go hard even with a practised speaker. Who can either hear or speak in an uproar? Even the finest orator will be disconcerted by it. I will expound to the son of Peleus, and do you other Achaeans heed me and mark me well. Often have the Achaeans spoken to me of this matter and upbraided me, but it was not I that did it: Jove, and Fate, and Erinys that walks in darkness struck me mad when we were assembled on the day that I took from Achilles the meed that had been awarded to him. What could I do? All things are in the hand of heaven, and Folly, eldest of Jove's daughters, shuts men's eyes to their destruction. She walks delicately, not on the solid earth, but hovers over the heads of men to make them stumble or to ensnare them. Book 19, Iliad, Samuel Butler Translation It is important ot note that Herculese doesnt show up in the Iliad, since it is the sotry of Achileis and his wrath, not Herculese, whow as laready Dead before the trojan War began...rather, Herculese, mentioe din lined 140-152, appears in a dialouge ocoincernign his Birth... But this dialouge bares little resemblance tot he afforementioend claims... Their is no flight, and no Hera ( Juno, Latin names used here) seekignto kill him for fear of loisng her thrine...below is the relevant pasage... "Time was when she fooled Jove himself, who they say is greatest whether of gods or men; for Juno, woman though she was, beguiled him on the day when Alcmena was to bring forth mighty Hercules in the fair city of Thebes. He told it out among the gods saying, 'Hear me all gods and goddesses, that I may speak even as I am minded; this day shall an Ilithuia, helper of women who are in labour, bring a man child into the world who shall be lord over all that dwell about him who are of my blood and lineage.' Then said Juno all crafty and full of guile, 'You will play false, and will not hold to your word. Swear me, O Olympian, swear me a great oath, that he who shall this day fall between the feet of a woman, shall be lord over all that dwell about him who are of your blood and lineage.' "Thus she spoke, and Jove suspected her not, but swore the great oath, to his much ruing thereafter. For Juno darted down from the high summit of Olympus, and went in haste to Achaean Argos where she knew that the noble wife of Sthenelus son of Perseus then was. She being with child and in her seventh month, Juno brought the child to birth though there was a month still wanting, but she stayed the offspring of Alcmena, and kept back the Ilithuiae. Then she went to tell Jove the son of Saturn, and said, 'Father Jove, lord of the lightning- I have a word for your ear. There is a fine child born this day, Eurystheus, son to Sthenelus the son of Perseus; he is of your lineage; it is well, therefore, that he should reign over the Argives.' "On this Jove was stung to the very quick, and in his rage he caught Folly by the hair, and swore a great oath that never should she again invade starry heaven and Olympus, for she was the bane of all. Then he whirled her round with a twist of his hand, and flung her down from heaven so that she fell on to the fields of mortal men; and he was ever angry with her when he saw his son groaning under the cruel labours that Eurystheus laid upon him. Even so did I grieve when mighty Hector was killing the Argives at their ships, and all the time I kept thinking of Folly who had so baned me. I was blind, and Jove robbed me of my reason; I will now make atonement, and will add much treasure by way of amends. Go, therefore, into battle, you and your people with you. I will give you all that Ulysses offered you yesterday in your tents: or if it so please you, wait, though you would fain fight at once, and my squires shall bring the gifts from my ship, that you may see whether what I give you is enough." Lee, you havent reas the Iliad, have you? Had you reas it, you woiudl know that Herculese is not menitoned, nor his Birth. Go on, read book 19. I dare you. Read the whole volume, its free online. Just because someone onlien makes an article and tries to make ot sound authoratative by presenting footnotes doesnt mean its accurate. This is only further proof that you beelive whatever supports your notions, wihtout doign any real research. I'll stop right there. |
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08-23-2004, 12:49 AM
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#15 |
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Is this theist named Metacrock, perchance?
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08-23-2004, 12:51 AM
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#16 |
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.......
No but it IS on his board. there happens to be another dyslexic theist, bizzaro world Meta perhaps? Guess not. If so I suppose he would be an atheist....or dyslexic. Shit what am I thinking? At any rate.... This guys name is Zarove3.
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08-23-2004, 12:52 AM
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#17 |
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BTW, Herakles is an alternate spelling of Hercules, and is mentioned in the Iliad:
http://messagenet.com/myths/bios/heracles.html |
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08-23-2004, 01:13 AM
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#18 |
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Thanks Toto
Here is the rest of his reply if anyone is so inclined.
Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It was very common that virgin sons were born during flights or travels. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Except Alchemene was neither a virgin, nor was she travelign anywhere... I know the Iliad said otherwise... but if you READ book 19, you will see Herculese isnt mentioned...( Sorry, I was mistaken, I thogth he entered in book 20, he is mentioend in book 19... but the evetns differ radiclaly than the Articles claims.) Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That was the case when Isis gave birth to Horus. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- wow. one is acrlaly sort of rigt...except she was fleeign her brother, and the childs Uncle, Set, and gave Birth in a swamp... Isis, liek Alchemene, was not a Virgin... Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- While Jesus, according to the Gospels, was born in Bethlehem, he was still called Jesus of Nazareth. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is because he was raised in Nazareth... Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Also Heracles was known to come from his father’s hometown Mycenae, despite the fact that he was born in Thebes (Friedrich Pfister, Herakles und Christus, p. 47; refers to a Greek inscription, Carmina epigraphica, 22). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- His father was Zeus, who resides on olympus... Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When Heracles is born, the goddess Hera, Zeus’ wife, is told that a king of her tribe is born. Knowing that Zeus is the father, and driven by jealousy and fear of losing her power to the new king, she tries to kill Heracles. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is another lie...Hera was driven by Jelousy... but she was on no way driven by fear of looisng her thrine, and she was not a wueen of a tribe, she was wueen of the gods... VBGo on, find independant veritfication she feared he woudl userp her... I dare you...soemthign that dosnt say Herculese appears int he Iliad and is Born while his mother is in flight! Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Like Jesus’ parents fled with Jesus to Egypt in order to escape Herod’s persecution, and after Herod’s death returned to Palestine, Heracles’ mother hides Heracles to escape Hera’s persecution and afterwards brings him back. (Diodorus Siculus [c. 90-21 BCE] Bibliotheca Historica, 4, 9:4ff). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Woudl you beleive, she raised him at hime, where he killed two snakes sent by Hera to kill him? Oh thats right, Im a lunatic liar who needs to rea dmore books, Lee, on the other hand, has a firm handle on this stuff...its not liek he just reads articles and posst them woout queasitoning their content... I wont beleive this reference until I see it... as it is, I alreayd know this article lied abotthe Iliad, whikc is foolish since its such a well known wirk and freely availableonline... Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Before Heracles begins his public mission, he spends – just like Jesus – a long time by himself. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Herculese had no public mission, and we don know if Jesus spent time alone, theirs a difference between lck of record and presumption of what happened... also, herclese didnt relaly lead any time alone, we have pretty much his whole Bio mapped out... I mean, he fathered 50 sons with the 50 daughters of a King whose name escaped me in his youth!!! Oh thats tright, we are only lookign for the similarities, and makign them up if need be... thats OK, we knwo this article tells the truth, right Lee? I mean it discredits Chrisyainity, right? The Iliad records Herculese Virgin Mother givign Birth in flight, just liek the article said, I really must jave written that 19th Bookmyself, right??? well, right??? Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- During this period he is tempted, and like Jesus he overcomes the temptations. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Uhm... No he wasnt... he killed someone for shortign him on cattle and had to live as a slave and do 12 labours... oh thats right, this is just more of me needign to read more books... unliek Lee who uses articles and beelives them without wueasiton... Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hermes shows Heracles the spheres of the Kings and the tyrants from a high mountain. (Friedrich Pfister, Herakles und Christus, p. 48; refers to Marcus Tullius Cicero [106-43 BCE], De Officiis, 1:118; Xenophon [c. 430-355 BCE], Memorabilia, 2.1:21-33 [Loeb] and Dio Cassius [c. 150-235 CE], Romaika historika. Compare with Mark 1:12ff). Jesus also meets this fate, when the Devil shows him the glory of the kingdoms of the earth from a high mountain, and promises that he can rule them all (Matth 4: . -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I woudl love to see this, I really would... We know his other footnotes are bad. I even showed his Iliad footnote, why shoudl I beleive this, since it seems wholly forign tot he standard Herculese Myth presented in edith Hamilton, Griesel's Mythology, or in any known work by anyone else? Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Both Sons of God have received a mission from their heavenly father, and both fulfil their fathers’ will (Epictetus, [c. 50-120 CE], The Discourses, 2:16, 3:24; Luke 4:43, 22:42, Matth 6:10). They both receive the confirmation of the mission prophetically, Heracles from the Oracle and Jesus from the book of the prophet Isaiah (Diodorus Siculus, Bibliotheca Historica, 4.10:7 [Loeb]; Luke 4:16ff). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No they didnt... Herculese reeved NO divine misison, and lived AS A SLAVE FOR THE CRIME OF MURDER IN THE HEAT OF PASSION, this is the famed 12 labours of Herculese!!!!!!!!! He also isnt "The son of God", hes the son of A god, Zeus, they didnt have "GOD" like we have... Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- They will both choose a path of suffering (Euripides, [c. 480-406 BCE], Herakles, 1244ff [Loeb]. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No they didnt...Herculese chose luxury and Honour, and only suffered when he had t pay for killing people... Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- According to Pfister, p. 50 also Plutarch, De Fortuna Alexandri, 2:11; Mark 8:31, Matth 16:21, Luke 9:22). Heracles is called The Saviour (Dion Chrysostomus [c. 45-120 CE], Orationes, 1:71 [Loeb]). Like Jesus, he walks on the water (Emperor Julian, [331 or 332-363 CE], Orationes, 7:219 D), but his great deed is to overcome death, and his death leads to eternal life (Seneca, [c. 4 BCE-65 CE], Hercules Furiens, 611ff, Hercules Oetaeus, 1944ff [Loeb]). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Herculese never walked on water, find a reference that said he did. I knwo this had a referenced footnote, but the footnotes cant be trusted. Nor did Herculese die and offer eternal life, thats hogwash and anyone who has read the Myth knows its Hogwash! Prve it with a primary source that doesnt lie! Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Deianira, the person who causes the death of Heracles, is like Judas Iscariot filled with despair and repentance and hangs herself (Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca, 2.4.7 [Loeb]; -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No she didnt... Likewise, she didnt betray him. After the Centaur Nesius (So?) tried to rape her and Herculese shot him with an arrow, he took a Shirt dpped in his blood and gave it to her, syaing that Hrculese woidl not remain faithful, but his blood would insure his love was eternal. It was a lie, the blood was poisonous, and Herculese died! Nonetheless, their is no real similarity between Deinara ( Herculese second wife, by the way) and Judas Escariot. Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Seneca, Hercules Oetaeus, 1020-24 [Loeb]). Jesus is crucified at Golgotha, a small hill outside of Jerusalem. Heracles is burned to death on the mountain Oeta. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No... Herculese died of beign Poisoned. His body was Burned after he was alreayd dead... its claled a funeral pyre and more matches Jesus Entombment than his Crucifiction... Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When Heracles dies, both his mother (Seneca, Hercules Oetaeus, 1290f [Loeb]) and his favourite disciple Hylas is there (Apollonius Rhodius, [c. 200 BCE], Argonautica, 1:1207ff). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Herculese didnt have Disiples, he wasnt all that bright and never taught anyone... Nor is their any account of his mother beign preasant at his final adventure. Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- According to John 19:25f the conditions were the same when Jesus died. Before Heracles dies he calls to his heavenly Father: “I beg you, take my spirit to the stars... Look, my father calls me and opens heaven. Father, I will come.� (Seneca, Hercules Oetaeus, 1703-26 [Loeb]). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ill beleive it when I see it... so far dotn trust this article as far as I can throw it... And no, its not just me "Denying" the facts, its me queastionign the validity of obvious rubbish. Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- According to Luke 23:46 Jesus cries out: “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.� Before they die, both Sons of Gods say: “It is finished.� (Seneca, Hercules Oetaeus, 1472 [Loeb]; John 19:30). When Heracles as well as Jesus dies, both an earthquake and a solar eclipse occur (Seneca, Hercules Oetaeus, 1131-7 [Loeb]). After his death Heracles resurrects and calls out: “Mother, do not mourn... after this I will go to heaven�, which he also does. The resurrected Jesus says to his mother: “Woman, why are you weeping? ... I ascend to my Father.� (Seneca, Hercules Oetaeus, 1965-75 [Loeb]; Apollonius Rhodius, Argonautica, 2:160; John 20:15,17). Even the information that the favourite disciple cared for the Saviour’s mother is found in the legend of Heracles (Seneca, Hercules Oetaeus, 1832-39 [Loeb]; John 19:26-27). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- None of this is foudn in the Herculese Myth, which is, oddly, free online... How anyone can beelive this nonsence is beyind me...well, not rellay... your just willflly ignorant Lee. You beleive at face this artilce, and wll say I am just denying. Im gettih teady for bed r I woudl post more, btu at leat have a look at the Iliad... That alone casts a pale of doubt upin this article... Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Above all the author of the Gospel of John seems to have borrowed a lot from the cult of Heracles. The word “Logos� which is frequent in John, is a loan from the Stoics, and was also part of the religion of Heracles. Compare John 3:17 with what Cornutus wrote in the 1st century. “For Logos is not there to injure or punish, but to save.� (Carl Schneider, Geistesgeschichte des antiken Christentums, book 1, p. 142; refers to Cornutus, Lucius Annaeus [1st century CE]. Theologicae Graeciae compendium, 16:21 and 31:62)" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No it wasnt... Herculese was neve associated withthe word " Logos"...heck, he was the god f strenght, NOT the god of wisdom or oration!!! Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Have fun checking out that documentation from REAL, ACTUALY mythology books. No signifigant simularities........... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yoiu mean form a real, actual mythology book that lied and said Herculese was born of a virign in flight in book 19 of the Iliad? Sorry, I will tear te rest apart later, but looks liek just another fraud to me... |
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08-23-2004, 01:38 AM
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#19 | |
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Quote:
F&G cite this passage (via Hoffmann): Justin Martyr, First Apology, 54 "Having heard it proclaimed through the prophets that the Christ was to come and that the ungodly among men were to be punished by fire, the wicked spirits put forward many to be called Sons of God, under the impression that they would be able to produce in men the idea that the things that were said with regard to Christ were merely marvellous tales, like the things that were said by the poets. Here is the translation in the Ante-Nicene Fathers: But those who hand down the myths which the poets have made, adduce no proof to the youths who learn them; and we proceed to demonstrate that they have been uttered by the influence of the wicked demons, to deceive and lead astray the human race. For having heard it proclaimed through the prophets that the Christ was to come, and that the ungodly among men were to be punished by fire, they put forward many to be called sons of Jupiter, under the impression that they would be able to produce in men the idea that the things which were said with regard to Christ were mere marvellous tales, like the things which were said by the poets. And these things were said both among the Greeks and among all nations where they [the demons] heard the prophets foretelling that Christ would specially be believed in; but that in hearing what was said by the prophets they did not accurately understand it, but imitated what was said of our Christ, like men who are in error, we will make plain. The prophet Moses, then, Was, as we have already said, older than all writers; and by him, as we have also said before, it was thus predicted: "There shall not fail a prince from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until He come for whom it is reserved; and He shall be the desire of the Gentiles, binding His foal to the vine, washing His robe in the blood of the grape." The devils, accordingly, when they heard these prophetic words, said that Bacchus was the son of Jupiter, and gave out that he was the discoverer of the vine, and they number wine [or, the ass] among his mysteries; and they taught that, having been torn in pieces, he ascended into heaven. And because in the prophecy of Moses it had not been expressly intimated whether He who was to come was the Son of God, and whether He would, riding on the foal, remain on earth or ascend into heaven, and because the name of "foal" could mean either the foal of an ass or the foal of a horse, they, not knowing whether He who was foretold would bring the foal of an ass or of a horse as the sign of His coming, nor whether He was the Son of God, as we said above, or of man, gave out that Bellerophon, a man born of man, himself ascended to heaven on his horse Pegasus. And when they heard it said by the other prophet Isaiah, that He should be born of a virgin, and by His own means ascend into heaven, they pretended that Perseus was spoken of. And when they knew what was said, as has been cited above, in the prophecies written aforetime, "Strong as a giant to run his course," they said that Hercules was strong, and had journeyed over the whole earth. And when, again, they learned that it had been foretold that He should heal every sickness, and raise the dead, they produced Aesculapius. So the idea that Justin is putting forth is that "the wicked demons" read Moses and the prophets and influenced the Greek poets to write tales that portray the hero fulfilling the traits attributed to the Christ to come. F&G cite this passage from Tertullian (via Kingsland): "The devil, whose business is to pervert the truth, mimics the exact circumstances of the Divine Sacraments. He baptizes his believers and promises forgiveness of sins from the Sacred Fount, and thereby initiates them into the religion of Mithras. Thus he celebrates the oblation of bread, and brings in the symbol of the resurrection. Let us therefore acknowledge the craftiness of the devil, who copies certain things of those that be Divine." F&G use the footnote "Quoted in Kingsland, W. (1937), 99." Earlier, with Hoffmann, F&G provided both the secondary source (Hoffmann) and the citation for the primary source (Justin Martyr, First Apology, 54). Here, no reference to the primary source is made. And, further, I can't find the passage that corresponds to the one above in The Ante-Nicene Fathers. Kingsland's book is in the bibliography as "Kingsland, W., The Gnosis, Phanes Press, 1937." This book is at the university library, and I might look it up later. Full title The gnosis or ancient wisdom in the Christian Scriptures; or, The wisdom in a mystery. F&G also make this quotation from Celsus (via Hoffmann, Celsus on the True Doctrine, 120): "Are these distinctive happenings unique to the Christians--and if so, how are they unique? Or are ours to be accounted myths and theirs believed? What reasons do the Christians give for the distinctiveness of their beliefs? In truth there is nothing at all unusual about what the Christians believe, except that they believe it to the exclusion of more comprehensive truths about God." (Hoffmann continues: "They believe in eternal punishment; well, so do the priests and initiates of the various religions. The Christian threatens others with this punishment, just as they are themselves threatened.") The above is a creative/loose "reconstruction" of the words of Celsus by Hoffmann based on this passage from Origen (Against Celsus 8.47-48): CHAP. XLVII. But the Greeks Will say that these accounts are fabulous, although two whole nations are witnesses to their truth. But why may we not consider the accounts of fife Greeks as fabulous rather than those? Perhaps some one, however, wishing not to appear blindly to accept his own statements and reject those of others, would conclude, after a close examination of the matter, that the wonders mentioned by the Greeks were performed by certain demons; those among the Jews by prophets or by angels, or by God through the means of angels; and those recorded by Christians by Jesus Himself, or by His power working in His apostles. Let us, then, compare all these accounts together; let us examine into the aim and purpose of those who performed them; and let us inquire what effect was produced upon the persons on whose account these acts of kindness were performed, whether beneficial or hurtful, or neither the one nor the other. The ancient Jewish people, before they sinned against God, and were for their great wickedness cast off by Him, must evidently have been a people of great wisdom. But Christians, who have in so wonderful a manner formed themselves into a community, appear at first to have been more induced by miracles than by exhortations to forsake the institutions of their fathers, and to adopt others which were quite strange to them. And indeed, if we were to reason from what is probable as to the first formation of the Christian society, we should say that it is incredible that the apostles of Jesus Christ, who were unlettered men of humble life, could have been emboldened to preach Christian truth to men by anything else than the power which was conferred upon them, and the grace which accompanied their words and rendered them effective; and those who heard them would not have renounced the old-established usages of their fathers, and been induced to adopt notions so different from those in which they had been brought up, unless they had been moved by some extraordinary power, and by the force of miraculous events. CHAP. XLVIII. In the next place, Celsus, after referring to the enthusiasm with which men will contend unto death rather than abjure Christianity, adds strangely enough some remarks, in which he wishes to show that our doctrines are similar to those delivered by the priests at the celebration of the heathen mysteries. He says, "Just as you, good sir, believe in eternal punishments, so also do the priests who interpret and initiate into the sacred mysteries. The same punishments with which you threaten others, they threaten you. Now it is worthy of examination, which of the two is more firmly established as true; for both parties contend with equal assurance that the truth is on their side. But if we require proofs, the priests of the heathen gods produce many that are clear and convincing, partly from wonders performed by demons, and partly from the answers given by oracles, and various other modes of divination." He would, then, have us believe that we and the interpreters of the mysteries equally teach the doctrine of eternal punishment, and that it is a matter for inquiry on which side of the two the truth lies. Now I should say that the truth lies with those who are able to induce their hearers to live as men who are convinced of the truth of what they have heard. But Jews and Christians have been thus affected by the doctrines they hold about what we speak of as the world to come, and the rewards of the righteous, and the punishments of the wicked. Let Celsus then, or any one who will, show us who have been moved in this way in regard to eternal punishments by the teaching of heathen priests and mystagogues. For surely the purpose of him who brought to light this doctrine was not only to reason upon the subject of punishments, and to strike men with terror of them, but to induce those who heard the truth to strive with all their might against those sins which are the causes of punishment. And those who study the prophecies with care, and are not content with a cursory perusal of the predictions contained in them, will find them such as to convince the intelligent and sincere reader that the Spirit of God was in those men, and that with their writings there is nothing in all the works of demons, responses of oracles, or sayings of soothsayers, for one moment to be compared. F&G say, "The Pagan philosopher and satirist Celsus criticized Christians for trying to pass off the Jesus story as a new revelation when it was actually an inferior imitation of Pagan myths." (The Jesus Mysteries, p. 27) If he does so, it's not in this passage. The "diabolical mimicry" theory of Justin Martyr (that the demons inspired the Greek poets to make stories similar to the Christ prophesied in the OT) was certainly not the only patristic theory on the similarities of Christ to pagan gods. For example, there was the view that these stories revealed a certain intuitive knowledge, dim and murky though it be, of Christian truth, by virtue of being a human being (shades of Jung) and/or that having this cultural framework prepared the way for acceptance of the Gospel. This page shows that Photius knew a whole work, dedicated to ferreting out such similarities, meant to demonstrate the truth of Christianity. And I haven't found an author other than Justin Martyr who clearly indicates any kind of demonic foresight in connection to the pagan similarities, so the "diabolical mimicry" thing may be exaggerated. best, Peter Kirby PS- Wow. I just noticed that all four of the ancient quotations on this page are unsubstantiated at best. The first two are examined above, the second two have been by others. |
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08-23-2004, 02:03 AM
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#20 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 759
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Right, Theists have already claimed the Justin Martyr quote was out of context and that the Feke and Gandy stuff is not "scholaraly". Also they claim the POCM site is pure trash.
Thanks for the stuff you quoted. Is there any link to a real reputable mythology book that proves that a godman rose from the dead, was born of a virgin, gave people salvation et, al?? Are all these claims made by axe grinding atheists?? Did they come up with this theory and slant the evidence to support themselves while not being entirely honest?? Another curious note, why am I expecting to find the answers to all of this in this thread when this debate has been raging on for some time now. Cant blame me for trying...or can you?? To me its simple. Either mythology books show simularities or they dont. I sort of assumed that, of course there were simularities. I mean the mixing of paganism with christianity via the Constantine conversion..... The obvious pagain origins and mixing of christmas. The blending of the pgan roman and christia cutures. These pagan trappings wouldnt have been thrown away all at once.. . I just wanna find out the truth. Atheist axe grinders practicing shotty scholarship and twisting evidence to support their theories and sometimes seemingly out and out LYING are as bad as the fundy apologetic idiots. |
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