Freethought & Rationalism Archive

French Prometheus · 05-28-2004, 03:15 AM

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Yeah, and what does any of this have to do with the 10 commandments!? LOL.

Well, nothing. But that wasn't my point. I just wanted to remind our good Reverend that Paul was a liar and that he often contradicted Jesus' teaching. Therefore changing God's law on account of what Paul said is not very "Christian".

Ganymede · 05-28-2004, 05:29 AM

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Originally Posted by Prometheus_fr

2/ The seventh day of the week (reserved for the Sabbath) is Saturday
I've never heard this claim challenged, especially since the Jews have kept the Sabbath on Saturdays since before Roman times. There is NO changing the Sabbath from the last to the first day of the week anywhere in the Bible.

Most Europeans consider that the week begins on Monday and ends on Sunday - hence Sunday is the Sabbath. I think (and am prepared to stand corrected) that considering Sunday as the first day of the week an an Americanism and is fairly recent in origin.

dado · 05-28-2004, 06:23 AM

it doesn't really matter which day is used for Shabbat, the important thing imo is that we set aside a day and...relax. contemplate. slow down. spend time with family. etc etc etc. it is said the old greeks considered Jews lazy because they stopped working every 7 days. i suppose in that sense, they were the progenitors of the 4-day french work week.

French Prometheus · 05-28-2004, 06:37 AM

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Originally Posted by Ganymede

Most Europeans consider that the week begins on Monday and ends on Sunday - hence Sunday is the Sabbath. I think (and am prepared to stand corrected) that considering Sunday as the first day of the week an an Americanism and is fairly recent in origin.

The Sabbath is supposed to be on the same day God took a rest after creating the Earth i.e. the seventh and last day of the week. It's not just any day (that's clear from Exodus 20). The last day of the week in the Bible is Saturday that's why Jews still keep the Sabbath on that day. And they've been doing that continuously for over 2000 years. Just because nowadays we consider that the week starts on Monday is irrelevant as far as the Bible is concerned.

So considering Saturday as the last day is very old practice (and not just an Americanism). That's one of the few consensual points among scholars and historians.

French Prometheus · 05-28-2004, 06:38 AM

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Originally Posted by dado

the 4-day french work week.

It's not 4 days...it's 35 hours

SEF · 05-28-2004, 10:42 AM

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Originally Posted by Ganymede

considering Sunday as the first day of the week an an Americanism and is fairly recent in origin.

As already mentioned, you are indeed wrong about this. However, even with less knowledge of history you might have been able to pick up a few hints just from the names. What's the biggest brightest bauble around which usually symbolises life, the source of things and is a major deity in most religions? What's a relatively minor bauble often symbolising death and the end of things in deity terms? Now, at which end of the week do you really think each of those came?

Ganymede · 05-28-2004, 03:48 PM

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Originally Posted by Prometheus_fr

The last day of the week in the Bible is Saturday that's why Jews still keep the Sabbath on that day.

Actually the bible dosent mention Saturday specifically at all.

French Prometheus · 05-29-2004, 02:47 AM

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Originally Posted by Ganymede

Actually the bible dosent mention Saturday specifically at all.

Saturday means Saturn's day. Of course the Bible doesn't use this word to name the last day of the week. What was later called the day of Saturn corresponded to the day of Sabbath for the Jews. And it has remained so after the diaspora (every isolated Jewish group has continued to keep the Sabbath on Saturday). As I said, this is not controversial among historians (whether secular or religious). So, if you have new evidence that it is wrong, that would be very interesting (especially for today's Jews).
Standard xian interpretation of the Bible holds that Jesus was crucified the day before the Sabbath (Friday which therefore became "Good" Friday) and resurrected the first day of the week (Sunday). The Church decided to call the first day of the week the Lord's day (this expression is used in the Bible but no particular day is indicated and it's absolutely not supposed to replace the Sabbath) and to celebrate a watered down version of the Sabbath on this day.

I suggest you google the word "sabbath" for more information.

For example, from Wikipedia website :

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The first Christians were Jews, and continued to honor the Sabbath on Saturday, at least until the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed in A.D. 70. Evidence indicates that some Gentile Christians also continued to celebrate the Sabbath many centuries into the Christian Era.

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In AD 321, The Emperor Constantine established the first day as a "venerable day", distinct from the Jewish Sabbath (See Blue law). It is believed by many that, at least the Jewish Christians, and some Greek and Asian Christians, continued to meet on the Sabbath, even if they also met on Sunday, perhaps even after the Council of Laodicea (a local council in Asia, held in 364 AD, which rejected those who kept the Jewish Sabbath). It is certain that seventh day observance was eventually eliminated in the Catholic and Orthodox church, but it survived in some cases outside of that communion.

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05-28-2004, 06:23 AM	#153
dado Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 839	it doesn't really matter which day is used for Shabbat, the important thing imo is that we set aside a day and...relax. contemplate. slow down. spend time with family. etc etc etc. it is said the old greeks considered Jews lazy because they stopped working every 7 days. i suppose in that sense, they were the progenitors of the 4-day french work week.

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