French Prometheus

I've raised this issue several times in various threads but never got a good answer. So I'm casting a line and see what I can fish...

1/ The 4th commandment
Exodus 20
8. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10. But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

2/ The seventh day of the week (reserved for the Sabbath) is Saturday
I've never heard this claim challenged, especially since the Jews have kept the Sabbath on Saturdays since before Roman times. There is NO changing the Sabbath from the last to the first day of the week anywhere in the Bible.

3/ Breaking one of the commandments is like breaking them all
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Violating the Sabbath is tantamount to commiting murder, adultery, idol-worship...

4/ Jesus confirmed the primacy of the 10 Commandments
Matthew 5
17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

5/ Ignorance, hypocrisy or what?
Many Christians are fond of quoting obscure passages dug up from the primitive rules of Leviticus and Deuteronomy to condemn divorce, contraception, homosexuality, abortion, the welfare state, stem cell research, the teaching of evolution,.... and to condone death penalty and discriminatory laws among other things. And yet they violate the core set of laws of the Pentateuch which are still binding on them.
Why?
Out of sheer ignorance?
Or just plain hypocrisy, picking rules that are not too demanding for them to follow?

Vorkosigan

Looks like GRD material to me....

Nectaris

Just a quick question for clarification, isn't the sabbath technically sundown Friday to sunrise on Saturday? Or is it till sundown on Saturday? I know Madonna on her current tour will not be doing shows on Friday nights (she's apparently reading the Kabbalah). Not that I care that much, but a couple of local DJ's have brought this up a few times.

Dave

French Prometheus

The Sabbath is from sundown on Friday evening to sundown on Saturday evening.

lpetrich

First, I've become somewhat disenchanted with Madonna on account of her involvement with that Kabbala cult, though I still like some of her earlier work.

Also, I'm reminded of an amusing incident related by Dr. Isaac Asimov, who was a Jewish atheist since his childhood, sort of like Apikorus here.

He had tried to arrange a dinner meeting with a certain acquaintance, but that evening, he wanted to observe Yom Kippur, the holiest Jewish holiday. Which would involve prayer and fasting. So IA rescheduled for the evening just after.

That evening, they met, and that acquaintance denounced IA for being a bad Jew who did not even know when Yom Kippur was, let alone observe it. But when that holiday ended on sundown that day, this gentleman ordered:

Ham on rye

And IA expressed his suspicion that Mr. G. would prefer honest atheism to hypocritical piety.

And for some curious reason, some Protestants of a century ago would consider Sunday card playing wicked. I once found a Bible with a study guide that supported this prohibition, but the "support" was some vague Bible verse that had no clear connection with card games.

lpetrich

More seriously, Orthodox Jews often argue that electricity is a form of fire, and therefore must not be used on the Sabbath. Though that looks absurd, electricity and fire are electron-transfer phenomena, so a rabbinical hair-splitter could argue it both ways.

Electricity is an average motion of electrons in wires.
Combustion involves electrons being transferred from fuel molecules to oxygen ones.

However, for complete observance of the Sabbath, such a hairsplitter would have to go into suspended animation or something like that, because our energy metabolism has electron transfer in it -- a complicated "respiratory chain" of electron transfer from various food-supplied molecules to oxygen.

Hmmm... am I the only one who knows anything about metabolic pathways?

Rev. Timothy G. Muse

From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, God appointed the seventh day of the week to be the weekly Sabbath; and the first day of the week ever since, to continue to the end of the world , which is the Christian Sabbath. (Westminister Shorter Catechism - Question 59)

Even as early as the time of the Apostles, precedent was set for celebrating the Christian Sabbath on Sunday. In Rev. 1:10, John states "On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, ..." This is the only place where the "Lord's Day" is used in Scripture, and therefore is difficult to define, but when combined with the historical practice of the church and other Scripture passages concerning the worship of the New Testament church, the best suggesstion is that this refers to a day of worship, a weekly commemoration of the resurrection (which took place on no other day of the week than Sunday!) In Acts 20:7, Luke writes "On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. In John 20:19, we read "On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together..." Again, in 1 Cor 16:2, referring to what must have been their normal time of coming together, we read "Now about the collection for God's people: Do what I told the Galatioan churches to do. On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income..."

The point is this: prior to the resurrection, history as well as the worship of God pointed forward to the time when a sacrifice would be offered, which was signified by the Jewish sabbath (and passover). Jesus Christ is the "paschal lamb". John the Baptist even said of him, "Look, the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." However, now that the Christ has been crucified corresponding with the time of the former Sabbath, the Christian church now celebrates and looks back at the time of his Resurrection, which occurred on the first day of the week, even as we look forward to the day of his return.

As far as the issue of hypocrites goes, Christians ARE those who have broken the entirety of the law, ... and still do in and of our own strength. However, Christians rely on the promises and grace of God trusting in his forgiveness for breaking the Ten Commandments. That's the very reason Christ came, because no one, not even Christians could keep it themselves. However, as 1 John 1:9 says: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

Jesus says in Matt 9:12 "It is not the healthy who nneed a doctor, but the sick." True Christians are those who have come to acknowledge they have a problem with sin, and need help from him who come to call not the righteous (in their own eyes), but sinners.

usartist

Let us discuss hypocrisy.

Is not hypocrisy the major complaint that we atheists have with theists?

Wouldn't we be much more tolerant of theists if they practiced their religion without hypocrisy?

Murder, Adultry, Theft, Perjury and honoring the Sabath are all violated by those who claim them to be of their god's Laws. If those laws were not violated this would be a more peaceful World.

If we complain about their hypocrisy, are we putting ourselves into a self-righteous realm of standard?

Are atheists without hypocrisy?

I don't think so. I think I can take you on a tour and demonstrate the outrageous hypocrisies of atheists. And the only way atheists can deny the hypocrisy is by arguing that we are all of different opinions. Whereas theists have to abide by the ideology that god is a community god. If god is not a community god, that is if a theist understands god as a personal god then the organized religion breaks down:

I have a personal relationship with God. He understands that I need a little more than others. So he grants me forgiveness for violating a couple of his rules. He understands me, I have a personal relationship with him.

funinspace

I don't think it's hypocrisy in terms of what is the Sabbath. It's hypocrisy in terms of the Bible being some perfect guide book. Anyone that is trying to make a coherent doctrine out of the cannon is in a pickle no matter what they do. Do you listen to Jesus in Ma 5:17-19, or Paul in his epistles? They don't play well together as you have provided by example. That's why people contort Ma 5:17-19 into meanings it doesn't say. Christians handle it in a variety of ways. You have an example right above with Rev. Timothy Muse. He uses Paul's Epistles (and provides the key verses that are used), and simply deflects Ma 5:17-19. If cornered, most literalists would say it means something else. Some acknowledge the contradiction, but they usually don't claim an inerrant cannon, like many mainstream Protestants. I would say the lay people are quite often ignorant of the whole problem.

DK

Rev. Timothy G. Muse

One thing I notice is that often non-Christians point to different views among Christians as a reason to discount the Scripture. Christians acknowledge there are different levels of sanctification, maturity and interpretive skills among believers. That however, does not deny the perfection of the Scriptures. (2 Tim 3:16; John 10:35; 2 Pet 1:20-21, etc.)

Next, non-Christians fail to recognize that the interpretive framework one uses (the best being Sola Scriptura) makes a significant difference in whether verses of Scripture contradict or conflict with other passages. In a "Covenantal" framework, which affirms that often literal passages in the Old Testament sometimes have a wider or spiritual fulfillment in the New Testament; passages such as Matt 5:17-19 do not conflict with the Pauline epistles, etc., but rather agree with with and provide mutual support.

For example, in Matthew 5, Jesus says he "did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; ... but to fulfill them." This he did, both through his active and passive obedience, fulfilling the law on behalf of sinners who themselves could not, and in doing so fulfilled the obligation of the law so that believers are left to serve out of a spirit of grace, not merit based obedience. This is made clear in Col 2:13-15 - "... He forgave us ... our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross."

That being said, in one sense, Christ himself IS the fulfillment of the Old Testament Sabbath. That's why Paul could say in Col 2:16-17 "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come, the reality, however, is found in Christ." The writer of Hebrews also says this in Heb 4 "For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own world, just as God did from his." The point is this, the Old Testament Sabbath was a day of rest, but our ultimate rest is found in Jesus Christ, because in him we can eternally rest from our labors, we no longer have to try to prove ourselves by our labors, but can cast aside any dependence or trust in our own works, relying only in his forgiveness and perfect righteousness (which involved his works/obedience) Therefore, the exhortation in Hebrews is all the more important, when it says: "Today, if you hear his voce, do not harden your hearts.....Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall..." We must be cautious, because in that same passage, he warns us, saying: some shall never enter his rest.