JoeWallack

Paul-Bearer of the Dead (Word). Sources of Paul's Witness. Revelation, Reception or NecRomancy?


JW:
In a previous Thread:

Ieousiscity.The Argument For HJ. A Skeptical Reconstruction

I tried to identify the best evidence for HJ found in Paul:

Romans 1:3
http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Romans_1

3 "concerning his Son, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,"

Romans 9:5
9:5 "whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen."

1 Corinthians 2:8
http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/1_Corinthians_2

2:8 "which none of the rulers of this world hath known: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory:"

1 Corinthians 11:23-25
11:23 "For I received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was betrayed took bread;

11:24 and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, This is my body, which is for you: this do in remembrance of me.

11:25 In like manner also the cup, after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood: this do, as often as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me."

Galatians 1:19
http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Galatians_1
1:19 "But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord`s brother."

Galatians 3:16
3:16 "Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

Galatians 4:4
4:4 "but when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law,"

1_Thessalonians 2:14-15
http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/1_Thessalonians_2
2:14 "For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;
2:15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;"

In my careless, clumsy and casual attempt I no doubt missed a few. Related to this supposed evidence we also need to consider the supposed Sources. There seems to be a tendency by people on both sides to proof-text Paul's Sources. Just because Paul appears to identify a Source in a particular verse does not necessarily mean Paul considered that his source for the entire Epistle and especially all the Epistles.

What I am sure of is that HJs don't appreciate the D-I-S-T-A-N-C-E between what would be good evidence for HJ and the extant evidence. Regarding Sources of HJ:

Level 1) Something, anything written by Jesus.

Level 2) Something written by someone who knew Jesus well.

Level 3) Something written by someone who knew Jesus.

Level 4) Something written by someone who knew someone who knew Jesus well and writes in the same language as the someone and identifies the someone.

Level 5) Something written by someone who knew someone who knew Jesus well and identifies the someone.

Level 6) Something written by someone who knew someone who knew Jesus well and identifies the someone but also identifies non-someone sources and prefers the someone sources.

Level 7) Something written by someone who knew someone who knew Jesus well and identifies the someone but also identifies non-someone sources and prefers the non-someone sources.


The purpose of this Thread will be to identify the Sources, General and Specific, of Paul's supposed witness for HJ.



Joseph

PAULMISTRY, n.
The 947th method (according to Mimbleshaw's classification) of obtaining money by false pretences. It consists in "reading character" in the wrinkles made by closing the hand. The pretence is not altogether false; character can really be read very accurately in this way, for the wrinkles in every hand submitted plainly spell the word "dupe." The imposture consists in not reading it aloud.

Ieousiscity.The Argument For HJ. A Skeptical Reconstruction

mountainman

Level 8) Something written by someone who knew someone who knew ABBREVIATED_CODE well and identifies the someone but also identifies non-someone sources and prefers the non-someone sources.



Joe,what do you know about this
abbreviated code business?

(RE: codes for the name of ???
in the oldest trinity of Greek codexes
and the Nag Hammadi codexes.)


Best wishes,


Pete Brown.

JoeWallack

JW:
The purpose of this Thread will be to identify the Sources, General and Specific, of Paul's supposed witness for HJ.

Paul's witness please:

Romans

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Romans_1

1:1 "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

1:2 which he promised afore through his prophets in the holy scriptures,

1:3 concerning his Son, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,

1:4 who was declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead; [even] Jesus Christ our Lord,

1:5 through whom we received grace and apostleship, unto obedience of faith among all the nations, for his name`s sake;"

JW:
General Assertian that Paul's authority here is from God/Jesus


2:16 "in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ."

General Assertian that Paul's authority here is from Jesus.


15:15 "But I write the more boldly unto you in some measure, as putting you again in remembrance, because of the grace that was given me of God,

15:16 that I should be a minister of Christ Jesus unto the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be made acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

15:17 I have therefore my glorifying in Christ Jesus in things pertaining to God.

15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any things save those which Christ wrought through me, for the obedience of the Gentiles, by word and deed,

15:19 in the power of signs and wonders, in the power of the Holy Spirit; so that from Jerusalem, and round about even unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ;

15:20 yea, making it my aim so to preach the gospel, not where Christ was [already] named, that I might not build upon another man`s foundation;

15:21 but, as it is written, They shall see, to whom no tidings of him came, And they who have not heard shall understand."

General Assertian that Paul's authority here is from God/Jesus. Negative Assertian that there is no human Source.


16:25 "Now to him that is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal,

16:26 but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith:

16:27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory for ever. Amen."

General Assertian that Paul's authority here is from God/Jesus. Implication that the Gospel is not from a Historical report of Jesus but from a subsequent analysis of the Jewish Bible and understanding of how prophecy was fulfilled.

Romans Scorecard:
Assertians that God/Jesus was the Source for Paul's Gospel = 4

Assertian that man was not the Source for Paul's Gospel = 1

Assertian that Historical Witness was the Source for Paul's Gospel = 0

Conclusion - Value of any supposed evidence of HJ in Romans = 0

Consideration for the Objective - Assume that you were a Roman Reader of this Epistle who had never heard of Jesus and consider that this Epistle gives no specifics of any Historical witness for Jesus. What would you conclude was Paul's Source for his Gospel based only on Romans?



Joseph

PAULMISTRY, n.
The 947th method (according to Mimbleshaw's classification) of obtaining money by false pretences. It consists in "reading character" in the wrinkles made by closing the hand. The pretence is not altogether false; character can really be read very accurately in this way, for the wrinkles in every hand submitted plainly spell the word "dupe." The imposture consists in not reading it aloud.

Ieousiscity.The Argument For HJ. A Skeptical Reconstruction

Vivisector

But we know, from the epistle itself, that this wasn't the case - Paul was writing to people who knew plenty about Jesus. In fact, he flatters them by saying that their faith is being reported "all over the world."

Cheers,

V.

JoeWallack

I told you bout JC yea,
Ya know he's as dead as can be yea.
Well here's another clue for you allall,
The Walpurgus was Paul's.


JW:
The purpose of this Thread will be to identify the Sources, General and Specific, of Paul's supposed witness for HJ.

Paul's witness please:

Rich Corinthian Blather

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/1_Corinthians_1

1:1 "Paul, called [to be] an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,"

General Assertian that Paul's authority here is from God.


1:17 "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not in wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made void."

General Assertian that Paul's authority here is from Jesus.


2:10 "But unto us God revealed [them] through the Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

2:11 For who among men knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of the man, which is in him? even so the things of God none knoweth, save the Spirit of God.

2:12 But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us of God.

2:13 Which things also we speak, not in words which man`s wisdom teacheth, but which the Spirit teacheth; combining spiritual things with spiritual [words]."

General Assertian that Paul's authority here is from God.


4:9 "For, I think, God hath set forth us the apostles last of all, as men doomed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, both to angels and men."

General Assertian that Paul's authority here is from God.


9:1 "Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not ye my work in the Lord?

9:2 If to others I am not an apostle, yet at least I am to you; for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord."

General Assertian that Paul's authority here is from Jesus.


11:23 "For I received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was betrayed took bread;"

Specific Assertian that Paul's source here is from Jesus.


12:28 "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, [divers] kinds of tongues."

General Assertian that Paul's authority here is from God.


13:2 "And if I have [the gift of] prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing."

General Assertian that Paul's source here is from God.


15:8 "and last of all, as to the [child] untimely born, he appeared to me also.

15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God."

General Assertian that Paul's authority here is from Jesus.


15:11 "Whether then [it be] I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed."

Is there an Implication here that Paul's source was HJ witness? God forbid. Paul previously in 1 Corinthians rePeatedly states that his Source was Jesus/God and never says it was human. Since Paul says here that dead Jesus first appeared to Cephas and James and than Paul, isn't the implication that they all had the same source, the same Type of dead Jesus, and therefore there was no need for Paul to receive any related information from Cephas and James since they all had the same source?

(Doug, the distinction between Paul's "Revealed" and "Received" is likely "Revealed" means "Shown" and "Received" means "Accepted").


I Corinthians Scorecard:
Assertians that God/Jesus was the Source for Paul's Gospel = 9

Assertian that man was not the Source for Paul's Gospel = 0

Assertian that Historical Witness was the Source for Paul's Gospel = 0

Conclusion - Value of any supposed evidence of HJ in Romans = 0

Consideration for the Vivisector - Assume that you were a Corinthian Reader of this Epistle who had never heard of Jesus and consider that this Epistle gives no specifics of any Historical witness for Jesus. What would you conclude was Paul's Source for his Gospel based only on 1 Corinthians?

Bonus material for Ben:

1 Corinthians 6:7 "Nay, already it is altogether a defect in you, that ye have lawsuits one with another. Why not rather take wrong? why not rather be defrauded?

1 Corinthians 6:8 Nay, but ye yourselves do wrong, and defraud, and that [your] brethren."

1 Corinthians 7:5 "Defraud ye not one the other, except it be by consent for a season, that ye may give yourselves unto prayer, and may be together again, that Satan tempt you not because of your incontinency."

Who picked up on this "Mark" or "Matthew"?



Joseph

PAULMISTRY, n.
The 947th method (according to Mimbleshaw's classification) of obtaining money by false pretences. It consists in "reading character" in the wrinkles made by closing the hand. The pretence is not altogether false; character can really be read very accurately in this way, for the wrinkles in every hand submitted plainly spell the word "dupe." The imposture consists in not reading it aloud.

Ieousiscity.The Argument For HJ. A Skeptical Reconstruction

I buried Yeshua

JoeWallack

JW:
The purpose of this Thread will be to identify the Sources, General and Specific, of Paul's supposed witness for HJ.

Paul's witness please:

More Rich Corinthian Blather

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/2_Corinthians_1

[Nothing]



Joseph

PAULMISTRY, n.
The 947th method (according to Mimbleshaw's classification) of obtaining money by false pretences. It consists in "reading character" in the wrinkles made by closing the hand. The pretence is not altogether false; character can really be read very accurately in this way, for the wrinkles in every hand submitted plainly spell the word "dupe." The imposture consists in not reading it aloud.

Ieousiscity.The Argument For HJ. A Skeptical Reconstruction

JoeWallack

JW:
The purpose of this Thread will be to identify the Sources, General and Specific, of Paul's supposed witness for HJ.

Paul's witness please:

Galatians

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Galatians_1

1:1 "Paul, an apostle (not from men, neither through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead),"

General Assertian that Paul's source here is Jesus and God.


1:11 "For I make known to you, brethren, as touching the gospel which was preached by me, that it is not after man.

1:12 For neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but [it came to me] through revelation of Jesus Christ.

General Assertian that Paul's source here is from Jesus.

General Assertian that man was not the Source for Paul's Gospel.


1:15 "But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, [even] from my mother`s womb, and called me through his grace,

1:16 to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Gentiles; straightway I conferred not with flesh and blood:

1:17 neither went I up to Jerusalem to them that were apostles before me: but I went away into Arabia; and again I returned unto Damascus.

1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and tarried with him fifteen days.

1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord`s brother."

General Assertian that Paul's source here is from God.

General Assertian that Paul's source here is Cephas and James.


2:1 "Then after the space of fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus also with me.

2:2 And I went up by revelation; and I laid before them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles but privately before them who were of repute, lest by any means I should be running, or had run, in vain.

2:3 But not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:

2:4 and that because of the false brethren privily brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

2:5 to whom we gave place in the way of subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

2:6 But from those who were reputed to be somewhat (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth not man`s person)-- they, I say, who were of repute imparted nothing to me:

2:7 but contrariwise, when they saw that I had been intrusted with the gospel of the uncircumcision, even as Peter with [the gospel] of the circumcision

2:8 for he that wrought for Peter unto the apostleship of the circumcision wrought for me also unto the Gentiles);

2:9 and when they perceived the grace that was given unto me, James and Cephas and John, they who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship, that we should go unto the Gentiles, and they unto the circumcision;

2:10 only [they would] that we should remember the poor; which very thing I was also zealous to do."

General Assertian that Paul's source here is Divine.

Negation of previous Implication that Cephas and James were a source (2:2).

General Assertian that man was not the Source for Paul's Gospel.


Galatians Scorecard:
Assertians that God/Jesus was the Source for Paul's Gospel = 4

Assertian that man was not the Source for Paul's Gospel = 2

Assertian that Historical Witness was a Source for Paul's Gospel = 1

Negation of Assertian that Historical Witness was a Source for Paul's Gospel = 1

Conclusion - Value of any supposed evidence of HJ in Galatians = little

Doug, it's clear there is a Contradiction in Galatians regarding Paul's attitude towards Jews following the Law. All of the detail is emphatic that Jews should not follow the Law anymore and there should be no difference between Jews and Gentiles now. Paul though also states that he is okay with Cephas preaching to the Jews that they should follow the Law. It's also Likely from the Scorecard above that Paul considered the Divine his Primary source of Jesus knowledge.

I think the difference between Paul and HJ witness regarding Jesus belief was Significant. You think it was insignificant. Each of us needs to try and explain the apparent Contradiction in Galatians above. The explanation I gave is that when Paul talks Details here regarding the Law this was a real and Significant difference between the sides. When Paul talks generally this indicated that HJ witness theoretically did not approve of Paul preaching his Gospel to the Gentiles but practically accepted it with the condition that he not preach to Jews.

Your explanation to this point is that when Paul is talking Details here regarding the Law he is only referring to a Gentile Gospel. However, these details Explicitly and Repeatedly refer to everyone, Jew and Gentile, Explicitly equate the two and Never indicate support for separate Gospels. You remain here Doug with a serious Contradiction that needs some explanation. Lack of an explanation here supports the position that the difference between Paul and HJ witness was significantly more than just the issue of Gentiles following the Law.



Joseph

PAULMISTRY, n.
The 947th method (according to Mimbleshaw's classification) of obtaining money by false pretences. It consists in "reading character" in the wrinkles made by closing the hand. The pretence is not altogether false; character can really be read very accurately in this way, for the wrinkles in every hand submitted plainly spell the word "dupe." The imposture consists in not reading it aloud.

Ieousiscity.The Argument For HJ. A Skeptical Reconstruction

Amaleq13

You missed one.

1:13 "For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers."

Paul is certainly admitting knowledge of the beliefs of "the church of God" and, elsewhere, claims to have accepted those beliefs and to have preached them. Therefore, at least some of Paul's "good news" was learned from humans. Therefore, Paul is referring to some other portion of his "good news" as having not come from any human.

There is no contradiction. Paul is consistent in asserting that faith in Christ meant you were not required to follow the purity codes. His opponents argued that gentile believers were required to follow the purity codes.

Where does Paul claim that Jews shouldn't follow the codes? There is a significant difference between declaring a requirement null and demanding everyone ignore it.

If they share faith in Christ, there isn't any difference even if the Jews follow the purity codes. That is Paul's point. They aren't relevant given faith in Christ.

Where do you see Paul saying that Cephas taught Jews to follow the Law?

No, it was clearly significant to both everyone involved. I'm denying there is evidence that the dispute was about anything except gentile-adherence to the purity codes.

Paul describes his "good news" as "that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles" even though it obviously included the same "good news" that was being preached to the Jews. Paul is talking about requirement here regarding the Law and asserting that the cross means gentiles have none. Jewish believers were already circumcized and already ate according to the purity codes.

Paul does not oppose the tradition but the significance attributed to it within the context of faith in Christ.

:huh: Galatians is replete with references to gospels other than his own. There is the explicitly "other gospel" opposing Paul's as well as the "gospel of the circumcision". Those holding to the latter only became the former when they insisted that Paul's "good news" was wrong.

JoeWallack

JW:
I see this as a key to our disagreement, Paul's attitude towards Jews continuing to follow the Law. My position is that based on Galatians, specifically, and all of Paul, Paul thought Jews should no longer follow the Law. Your position is that of Bill Murray in Ghostbusters, "Actually it's more of a guideline than a rule."

I'm going to deal only with this difference in this post to avoid distractions:

Galatians - support for the position that Paul thought Jews should no longer follow the Law:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Galatians_1

1:4 "who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us out of this present evil world, according to the will of our God and Father:"

Criticism of the Law - Implication that it can not Save


1:11 "For I make known to you, brethren, as touching the gospel which was preached by me, that it is not after man.

1:12 For neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but [it came to me] through revelation of Jesus Christ."

Criticism of the Law - Source for the Law was man.


1:14 "and I advanced in the Jews` religion beyond many of mine own age among my countrymen, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

1:15 But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, [even] from my mother`s womb, and called me through his grace,

1:16 to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Gentiles; straightway I conferred not with flesh and blood:"

Criticism of the Law - Source for the Law was man.


2:4 "and that because of the false brethren privily brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

2:5 to whom we gave place in the way of subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you."

The Law is an Obstacle to Salvation


2:14 "But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Cephas before [them] all, If thou, being a Jew, livest as do the Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, how compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?"

The Law is an Obstacle to Salvation


2:16 "yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Criticism of the Law


2:19 "For I through the law died unto the law, that I might live unto God.

2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that [life] which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, [the faith] which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.

2:21 I do not make void the grace of God: for if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nought."

The Law is dead.

The Law is an Obstacle to Salvation


3:1 "O foolish Galatians, who did bewitch you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was openly set forth crucified?

3:2 This only would I learn from you. Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh?"

The Law is an Obstacle to Salvation


3:5 "He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"

Criticism of the Law


3:10 "For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them.

3:11 Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith;

3:12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them.

3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:"

The Law is an Obstacle to Salvation

No difference between Jew and Gentile


3:16 "Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

No difference between Jew and Gentile


3:19 "What then is the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise hath been made; [and it was] ordained through angels by the hand of a mediator."

The Law is dead.


3:21 "Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could make alive, verily righteousness would have been of the law.

3:22 But the scriptures shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed."

The Law is dead.


3:24 "So that the law is become our tutor [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

3:25 But now faith that is come, we are no longer under a tutor.

3:26 For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.

3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.

3:28 There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one [man] in Christ Jesus.

3:29 And if ye are Christ`s, then are ye Abraham`s seed, heirs according to promise.

The Law is dead.

No difference between Jew and Gentile


4:4 "but when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law,

4:5 that he might redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

4:6 And because ye are sons, God sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

4:7 So that thou art no longer a bondservant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God."

Criticism of the Law


4:9 "but now that ye have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how turn ye back again to the weak and beggarly rudiments, whereunto ye desire to be in bondage over again?

4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and seasons, and years."

Criticism of the Law


4:21 "Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, one by the handmaid, and one by the freewoman.

4:23 Howbeit the [son] by the handmaid is born after the flesh; but the [son] by the freewoman [is born] through promise.

4:24 Which things contain an allegory: for these [women] are two covenants; one from mount Sinai, bearing children unto bondage, which is Hagar.

4:25 Now this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia and answereth to the Jerusalem that now is: for she is in bondage with her children.

4:26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.

4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband.

4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.

4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, so also it is now.

4:30 Howbeit what saith the scripture? Cast out the handmaid and her son: for the son of the handmaid shall not inherit with the son of the freewoman.

4:31 Wherefore, brethren, we are not children of a handmaid, but of the freewoman."

Criticism of the Law

The Law is an Obstacle to Salvation

No difference between Jew and Gentile


5:1 "For freedom did Christ set us free: stand fast therefore, and be not entangled again in a yoke of bondage.

5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that, if ye receive circumcision, Christ will profit you nothing.

5:3 Yea, I testify again to every man that receiveth circumcision, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

5:4 Ye are severed from Christ, ye would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace.

5:5 For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness.

5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love."

Criticism of the Law

The Law is an Obstacle to Salvation

No difference between Jew and Gentile


5:11 "But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? then hath the stumbling-block of the cross been done away.

5:12 I would that they that unsettle you would even go beyond circumcision.

5:13 For ye, brethren, were called for freedom; only [use] not your freedom for an occasion to the flesh, but through love be servants one to another.

5:14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."

Criticism of the Law

The Law is an Obstacle to Salvation


5:16 "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would.

5:18 But if ye are led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law."

Criticism of the Law


5:22 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

5:23 meekness, self-control; against such there is no law.

5:24 And they that are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with the passions and the lusts thereof.

5:25 If we live by the Spirit, by the Spirit let us also walk."

Criticism of the Law


6:12 "As many as desire to make a fair show in the flesh, they compel you to be circumcised; only that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ.

6:13 For not even they who receive circumcision do themselves keep the law; but they desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

6:14 But far be it from me to glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world hath been crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

6:15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

6:16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace [be] upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

6:17 Henceforth, let no man trouble me; for I bear branded on my body the marks of Jesus."

Criticism of the Law

The Law is an Obstacle to Salvation

No difference between Jew and Gentile (Paul was Jewish)


Scorecard:

Criticism of the Law = 13

The Law is an Obstacle to Salvation = 9

The Law is dead = 4

No difference between Jew and Gentile = 6

So, as Earnest said in the classic, The Importance of Being Earnest, "As I said." I confess Doug that there are a few places where Paul says or at least implies that there is a difference between Jew and Gentile but I Am the one who says Paul has Contradictions. Actually the bulk of Paul here is giving a History of and Relationship of the Law to Faith. Even though Paul's audience here are Gentiles the Subject of his History could only be "The Jews" since they were the only ones under The Law.


Joseph

PAULMISTRY, n.
The 947th method (according to Mimbleshaw's classification) of obtaining money by false pretences. It consists in "reading character" in the wrinkles made by closing the hand. The pretence is not altogether false; character can really be read very accurately in this way, for the wrinkles in every hand submitted plainly spell the word "dupe." The imposture consists in not reading it aloud.

Ieousiscity.The Argument For HJ. A Skeptical Reconstruction

Amaleq13

It would have been quicker if you had simply answered my question.

As your numerous quotes show, Paul never tells Jews they should stop following the purity codes. Instead, they should stop considering them necessary given faith in Christ.

Scorecard:

Criticism of the Law (as insufficient)= 13

Believing the necessity of The Law is an Obstacle to Salvation = 9

The Law is dead insufficient = 4

No difference between Jew and Gentile in Christ= 6

Jews should stop following The Law = 0

No, the subject is gentiles and how they could both obtain the inheritance of the Jews and avoid the requirements that were considered an essential to that inheritance.