Agemegos

It is worse than that

Omniscient/Omnipotent God => ! E(Free will)

Wads4

This seems to be in the same category of all prayer being blasphemous, because the prayers are an attempt to persuade God to change his perfect creation for the believers convenience: they're all going to Hell.

John A. Broussard

We seem to be dealing with motive, here. I'm not sure how anyone else feels, but if I happen to achieve immortal bliss because of someone's bad motivations, I'll settle for that. Even be grateful.

Isn't the only meaningful element the end product of an act?

To get back to Judas. Shouldn't anyone who believes that Jesus' crucifixion was the necessary step to their salvation be thankful for any act that contributed to that crucifixion.

Incidentally, I think Agemenos' comparison of these acts of god to behaving like a prostitute is priceless.

Ulrich

Just because Judas got paid for what he did, does not mean he was only acting in his own self interest. What if Judas came to believe over the course of time that Jesus was a seditionist, and that he was breaking several Jewish laws. Judas may have simply been acting on what he thought was best for his God and Country. He could even have been a plant by the Sanhedrin, in which case it was actually Judas who was dressed as the prostitute on the street corner, enticing Jesus to break the law and then slapping the cuffs on him.

Judas is simply painted as the bad guy now because the Christians got the last (only?) word in.

jayG60

Sounds good to me.

I always admired Judas. I just wish he'd handed that blasphemous insurrectionist over to the authorities without accepting the 30 pieces of silver. That tarnished his halo somewhat.

JEST2ASK

(AGEMEGOS) If Judas doubted Jesus divinity, if he was acting in what he believed were his own best interests and against someone else's the qualifier 'magnanimous' is not appropriate.

(ULRICH) Judas is simply painted as the bad guy now because the Christians got the last (only?) word in.


Among the many possiblities that spring to my mind are ....

1 - Jesus acting on his belief that he must not only be crucified but at a specific time and place enlisted the help of Judas. Judas acted only on what he thought was the command / wishes of his leader ... In the story (which I do not take to be necessarily based on history) what transpired at the last supper lends some credance in my mind to this or some variation of Judas' motivation.

2 - (JayG60)
I always admired Judas. I just wish he'd handed that blasphemous insurrectionist over to the authorities without accepting the 30 pieces of silver. That tarnished his halo somewhat.

Unlike AGEMEGOS I do not have any certainity about the motivations of Judas (If he indeed existed ... it is all unknown ..) in spite of the "Orthodox version ...

Jesus Christ Superstar was mentioned, and there is also The Last Temptation Of Christ ... as well as countless other writtings ancient and modern about what / who Judas was... Doesn't there come a point when we have to admit "I do not know" :huh:

P.AS. :wave: John good discussion starter especially considering the season

Chili

It is, and is the best thing the Jews ever did. They do this well and do it often: "For more numerous are the children of the deserted wife [who's son is being crucified here] than the children of her who has a husband" (Is. 54:1).

. . . but Judaism is the pimp that peddles the idea of divine intercourse out of which this Christ was born who is now forcing Judaism to eat its own afterbirth that ends with the final betrayal. It is clever, magnificent and magnanimous for Judaism to be the suffering servant while it should forever be admired for that insight.

It is the Law that brought about idea of shame that here now is betrayed by the prostitute and therefore not Judas but Judaism should get the credit. The idea here is that the Law has a purpose which is not civil obedience but the appearance of civil obedience so prostitution can work. Ie. a certain mindset is needed to make prostitution what it is.

"Fear not, you shall not be put to shame;
you need not blush, for you shall not be disgraced.
The shame of your youth you shall forget,
the reproach of your widowhood no longer remember." (Is.54:4)

JEST2ASK

Wonderful words ... I always find your postings entertaining and enlightening :notworthy

I too am a proponet of legalized prostitution .... but somehow I don't think that's what you meant :huh:

dirtymatt

The movie The Last Temptation of Christ has a really great scene with Jesus and Judas where Jesus tells Judas that he (Jesus) had the easy role in the crucifixion, he only had to die. Judas had to turn his friend over to be executed, and that god chose Judas because he knew that Judas had the strength. Or something like that. Of course some christians wanted to bomb movie theaters over the film, so take it for what it's worth.

I always took Judas as believing that Jesus was going to deliver the Jews into being a free people and that he was just trying to force Jesus into starting a revolution.

The Elder

It's just more of the contradictory nature of much of the Bible. Judas was ordered by Jesus to do it, Satan entered him and made him do it, it had to be done, and yet he was condemned by Jesus and everyone that followed for doing it.