Jayhawker Soule

Thanks for the response. I'm sure you'll agree that to argue Jesus as an early Christian martyr who believed in Jesus is less than compelling, and is unlikely to deal a death-blow to the mythicist position. So, what is your evidence surrounding John the Baptist. I must admit that I've not read anything by him. Thanks.

Toto

Frank Zindler thinks JtB is mythic, and all references to him in Josephus were forged. Most mythicists think that he could have been a historical figure, given the evidence of Josephus, who paints a picture of a Jewish preacher that differs in many respects from the Gospel's depiction, but that he was more likely a leader or figurehead of a sect that was in competition with Christianity. What evidence is there to connect him to Christianity, outside Christian myth?

A mythicist would say that Jesus was a myth, right?

A literary character in that Hellenistic novel, the Acts of the Apostle. No history necessary.

Probably not Christians - the passage is most likely a medieval forgery.

Mythical. See Drews work on that.

Most mythicists, especially Doherty, accept that there was a historical Paul, based on the evidence that he left letters. His martyrdom is iffy. I would say there is no real credible evidence that he suffered a martyr's death.

Probably not a Christian, if he is the James described by Josephus. I assume the "brother of Jesus" is later forgery.

There might have been Christians persecuted by Domitian. So what?

ditto

A literary fiction.

Possibly, although, from atheism.about.com I still don't see the point of this. Is it your claim that a historic Jesus would be more or less likely to inspire martyrdom in others? In what way have mythicists been unable to come to terms with early Christian history?

Yuri Kuchinsky

Thanks for your reply, Toto,

But actually the main point is not merely to say that such and such mythicist says so and so about any specific possible martyr... The main point, rather, is to present a coherent unified picture of how Christianity emerged based on accepting some particular set of martyrs as historical.

Because the big problem with the mythicists is that they all tend to contradict each other in this area!

So the challenge is to accept some specific martyrs, and then, on this basis, to give your own particular version of Christian origins.

More, of course.

See above.

They lack a unified picture of Christian origins, that can be subject to scrutiny. If they don't have a positive case in this area, then there's really nothing to discuss.

And how about answering one of my other questions... Did the belief in the HJ emerge before or after the first Christian martyrs emerge?

Regards,

Yuri.

Toto

I assume that Christianity arose in the second century (or maybe about 90 CE), and Christians invented their first century history, and the martyrdom of all the first century martyrs. My guess is that the first Christian martyrs preceded a belief in a HJ, because the early Christians were dissenters from the Roman Empire's prevailing ideology, and this was enough to make them targets. The HJ was invented later, when the Church needed to invent a succession for itself.

I think that any real proof of this is lost, but it explains more than the idea that there was a HJ who escaped notice for so long.

darstec

Even that is iffy. The single reference we have is supposed to be by Irenaeus and it is from a Latin quote of the Greek. It is possible that Irenaeus has been misunderstood. Scholar Robert Young stated that the name Domitianou, referring actually to Nero, was mistaken by later writers for Domitian.

Moreover, the infamous liar Eusibius himself doubted the accuracy of that passage.

Amaleq13

Could you be more specific and provide examples of this contradiction?

Clivedurdle

Again criminal activity - treason, denying the gods, wrecking trade at temples, superstition!

Methinks the assertion they were martyrs needs proving! You are not a martyr if you have been tried and punished properly!

andrewcriddle

According to the usual chronology Telesphorus became Pope c 125 CE.

His execution is normally dated 10 to 15 years later.

(I'm not claiming these dates are necessarily reliable but they're the best we have)

Andrew Criddle

Yuri Kuchinsky

Are you saying that you're unaware of them?

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky

Thus, the gospels are second century products?

I'm glad that someone agrees with me on this!

So when did this invention happen? Second century? When exactly in the second century?

The first Christian martyrs were also in the second century? Any names?

So how exactly did they dissent from the Roman Empire's prevailing ideology?

There were hundreds, if not thousands of religions and cults within the Roman empire. Why would the Romans persecute some laid back followers of a mythical Saviour?

Invented when later?

So now finally Toto went beyond a purely negative agenda, and started to offer some positive hypotheses about Christian origins.

But as soon as one does this, all sorts of inconsistencies and improbabilities begin to emerge in the mythicist alternative history.

Regards,

Yuri.