NewtonPooton

Okay, instead of arguing that what's in the bible is wrong, why doesn't anybody talk about where it al came from? For example, all the similarities between the bible and the egyptian book of the dead.

It seems that Moses stole some of the Ten Commandments from the Egyptians and that the "10 plagues" was actually the eruption of Thera in the Mediterranean Sea just north of Egypt. And if you go on to read the descriptions of a couple recent eruptions, one being Krakatoa (sic), it would make sense.


Nobody talks about Gilgamesh and the flood, either. Instead of arguing about, or even seriously discussing events in the bible and prophesies in the bible and which ones did or didn't come true, why not argue about the general construction and history of the book itself? Maybe I missed that thread...?


shawn

Peter Kirby

How's this?

The story of Gilgamesh and the flood is part of a larger Gilgamesh Epic, which is written out in Akkadian on twelve tablets, each with 300 lines. These tablets were made in the second millennium B.C.E., so they predate the story in the Bible. Contrary to what I assumed, Gilgamesh was not the person who sailed a boat during a great flood. Gilgamesh was the pre-historical Sumerian king who, in the epic, was seeking immortality and at one point inquired after Utnapishtim for clues as to how to attain it. Apparently Utnapishtim, whose nickname is Atrahasis (which means “exceedingly wise�), had been informed by the god Enki about the coming disastrous flood and was instructed to build “a cubical ship with six stories and nine sections.� Seven days of flooding pass, and the ship comes to rest on Mount Nasir. Utnapishtim sends a bird in order to see how high the water still is, and then he offers a sacrifice for which the gods are grateful. As a result, the gods give Utnapishtim the gift of immortality.

It turns out that there is another flood story in Sumerian myth that also involves Atrahasis, this one being part of the Atrahasis epic. The Atrahasis Epic presents a story that is in some ways parallel, but longer, and with a different purpose of the flood. In the Atrahasis Epic, the gods, led by Enli, are seeking for a way to curtail the growth of the human population that had recently been created. At first they attempt death by plague, and then they attempt death by drought. After neither works, being foiled by Enki, the lasting solution comes out of the flood, in which only the family of Atrahasis is saved. Enli and Enki strike a deal to allow humans to live on earth within limits. In contrast, the Genesis story includes the command to multiply and fill the earth.

There are flood stories in other cultures as well, and like the Noah story in the Bible, they portray a separation between a primeval era and the present period of human existence. For example, in Iranian myth (in the Avesta), there is a person called Yima. Yima helps the earth to accommodate the increasing human population. After 1200 years, Ahuramazda commands him to prepare for a flood over the earth that will result from melting snow. Yima is commanded to make an enclosure in a mountain in order to preserve a portion of humanity and animals, as well as to keep a flame going. In the story, unlike in the Bible, Yima seems to still reside in the enclosure and will do so until the end of the world comes.

In the Indian culture, the one who survives a great flood is called Manu Vaivasvata, and he survives on the back of a “giant horned fish.� In classical myth, as related by Ovid in the Metamorphoses, Jove sends a great flood to wipe out evil (note the parallel to the Bible), in which only the righteous family of Deucalion and Pyrrha are saved.

I find it fascinating that a flood story has been found in so many cultures. Some of the occurrences can most likely be explained by borrowing. The Sumerian flood story is part of some of the oldest literature on earth, and Sumer itself is a city of Mesopotamia, where the oldest civilization began. Such stories would permeate the myths of other, later cultures, whether to Iran in the east, Greek and Rome in the west, or Israel in the western part of the Fertile Crescent. However, I was struck by both similarities and differences, even with differences within Sumerian sources. As a final comment, I thought the stories about Yima and Manu are amusing enough that I might want to read the literature itself one day.

best wishes,
Peter Kirby

Toto

When They Severed Earth from Sky: How the Human Mind Shapes Myth has some interesting observations on how real events turn into myths.

NewtonPooton

Thanks for the replies, but my dumbass forgot to put the links in the post last night. My computer started CLICKING so i had to hurry and finish.


These two links explain the volcano that erupted which could have been turned into the plagues of Egypt and then later on written about with Moses in control, like he was the one controlling it (through God, whatever). Real neat stuff.
http://www.mystae.com/restricted/str...era/thera.html
http://www.mystae.com/restricted/str...ra/exodus.html

Here's a link with about 75 or so different creation myths from that many cultures...
http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/uranus.htm

Jedi Mind Trick

Just some idle musing here, but I find it interesting that this story mentions the flood as being connected with melting snow. It is also interesting that there is this ubiquitous myth as divergent as it is similar, all involving a flood. It is also one of the oldest literary topics that man has entertained. Some island peoples mention the escapees as surviving on rafts or climbing to high ground, IIRC.

We know that the end of the last ice age happened, what, 10,000 years ago? Seems about the right time for the emergence of human civilization also. Are these early memories of global changes perhaps?

So, the Ancient Persians mentioned the melting of snow as the catalyst for the great flood. Sumerians mention what was likely a massive overflow of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in the Ziusudra epic. Scientist think that the Black Sea flooded over into the Aegean and into Turkey and possibly even reaching the Levant…. Maybe the same could have happened with the Caspian Sea down into the Plains of Shinar?

What I’m getting, I guess is that it seems that a number of events happened in antiquity that involved massive flooding and that this may be related to the melting of the massive ice age glacial regions of the northern hemisphere all around the world. This may have set off a series of local and multi-regional flood events at various times in antiquity. This, coupled with the human penchant for making taller tales out of significant events, is responsible for Noah, et al.

Nero's Boot

I find it endlessly fascinating that the Bible-thumpers are so certain that their flood myth is correct, when so many older myths exist. How can the fundie be sure Noah is the correct flood-survivor, when Utanapishtim might be the one?

--or Yima? NB

Chris Weimer

Here's a good place to start. Also The Bible Unearthed and The Bible: with Sources Revealed are both highly recommended by me.