Freethought & Rationalism Archive

blastula · 03-07-2008, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

All that is takes to self-fulfill a prophecy is the belief that it is true, and enough military power to make it come true. If the Koran said that a Muslim temple would be rebuilt in Mecca, and a temple was rebuilt in Mecca, Christians would consider the to be a self-fulfilled prophecy, but why? It is up to Christians to reasonably prove that if Abraham falsely believed that God made a land promise to him and his descendants that the Partition of Palestine would not have happened anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blastula

But so what? The prophecy may have been a prophecy of an event that would only be achieved by self-fulfillment. What you would call a non-self-fulfilled prophecy may also occur by means as natural as self-fulfilling actions. Unless you want to differentiate between prophecies that require miraculous actions and those that don't, then there is nothing invalid about a self-fulfilled prophecy. Self-fulfillment does not refute the authenticity of a prophecy. If it came true, it came true. What's harder to prove is that it was foretold by supernatural revelation or just mundane guessing.

What you said is basically what I thought that I said. Since you do not believe that, I am willing to go with what you said. Let's let arnoldo and sugarhitman as you said "prove is that it was foretold by supernatural revelation."

You were trying to refute the supernatural origin of the prophecy by saying it was self-fulfilled. I am saying it's possible a prophecy can be of supernatural origin while also being fulfilled by self-fulfilling actions. I am saying self-fulfillment alone can't refute a claim of supernatural origin.

As I said, though, the fulfillment of a prophesy that a fallen nation would rise again is not very remarkable. Look at the old Soviet Union states. How many of those rose and fell and rose again? Whether or not Israel has been truly restored in a way that fulfills any prophesy, such fulfillment is very weak evidence for a divine origin of the prophecy.

blastula · 03-07-2008, 10:25 AM

Another obvious problem with restoration as evidence is that it occurred over 2000 years after the prophecies. If you asked anybody that believed in a restoration prophecy back in that day, they would not have thought it meant 2000 years later. Just like most everybody today who says Jesus is coming again, believes it will happen in their lifetime or soon thereafter. See Mark 13:30.

If the prophecies gave a date for restoration, that would count as better evidence.

If I say there will be a magnitude 8 earthquake in California someday that's not a remarkable prediction. If I give an exact date, it is.

spin · 03-07-2008, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Mod advisory: This thread is one of the longest in the history of BCH, but it is becoming one of the most pointless. It seems to have degenerated into repetitious statements and mockery. I prophesy that it will probably be closed and locked in the not too distant future.

Could you explain what a self-fulfilling prophecy is as you do?

spin

Johnny Skeptic · 03-07-2008, 12:55 PM

Message to arnoldo: I concede for the sake of argument that God can predict the future. What does that reasonably prove about his character?

Toto · 03-07-2008, 12:58 PM

Have any of you read Sartre's No Exit? Do you know why I keep thinking of that?

I am putting this thread out of its misery. There are multiple other threads where any remaining questions can be cleared up.

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03-07-2008, 10:25 AM	#1202
blastula Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: USA Posts: 6,070	Another obvious problem with restoration as evidence is that it occurred over 2000 years after the prophecies. If you asked anybody that believed in a restoration prophecy back in that day, they would not have thought it meant 2000 years later. Just like most everybody today who says Jesus is coming again, believes it will happen in their lifetime or soon thereafter. See Mark 13:30. If the prophecies gave a date for restoration, that would count as better evidence. If I say there will be a magnitude 8 earthquake in California someday that's not a remarkable prediction. If I give an exact date, it is.

03-07-2008, 12:55 PM	#1204
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to arnoldo: I concede for the sake of argument that God can predict the future. What does that reasonably prove about his character?

03-07-2008, 12:58 PM	#1205
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Have any of you read Sartre's No Exit? Do you know why I keep thinking of that? I am putting this thread out of its misery. There are multiple other threads where any remaining questions can be cleared up.

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