Freethought & Rationalism Archive

French Prometheus · 05-11-2005, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

there's actually 10 verses in the NT which mention James, the French equivalent of Jacob

Nitpick: James is an English name, not a French one. In French, James is called Jacques.

judge · 05-11-2005, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Kirby

I know what Chris and spin mean when they refer to "two forms" of the same Greek word being used for one proper name, here Jacob--with the omicron-sigma ending for the NT figure, and without that ending for the figure in the Hebrew Bible. I don't know what you mean by "two forms." You'll have to be more specific.

best,
Peter Kirby

Woops i meant two words not two forms.

Chris Weimer · 05-11-2005, 03:53 PM

Prometheus - I could have sworn I read somewhere that English got it from French, of course, it might be Norman, Provencal, Langue D'oil, Langue D'oc, etc... But regardless, the point stands.

Judge - I've presented the arguement as clearly as possible, and not only does everyone else get it here, but at that other forum they get it also. What don't you understand. And do you have an Aramaic in two forms that get's compressed to one in Greek?

Peter Kirby · 05-11-2005, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Woops i meant two words not two forms.

That wouldn't be the same type of argument.

best,
Peter Kirby

judge · 05-11-2005, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Kirby

What don't you understand about the argument?

best,
Peter Kirby

I don't understand why Chris thinks the facts he presents are an argument.

Have a look at the first post.

Quote:

Why else would the distinction be made if it was translated from the Aramaic as only Yaqob

Christ presents no argument but rather asks a question.

What is the argument as you understand it?

Once a clear argument is presented we can examine the argument.

judge · 05-11-2005, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

Judge - I've presented the arguement as clearly as possible, and not only does everyone else get it here, but at that other forum they get it also. What don't you understand.

Chris can you explain how your imagine this occurred.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

And do you have an Aramaic in two forms that get's compressed to one in Greek?

Two words in the Aramaic NT for priest, cross, demon that are reduced to one in the greek.
These are three examples off the top of my head.

Also you can check out Jon 21:15-17 and see the same phenomenon.

Works both ways, in fact it works more the other way.

French Prometheus · 05-11-2005, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

Prometheus - I could have sworn I read somewhere that English got it from French, of course, it might be Norman, Provencal, Langue D'oil, Langue D'oc, etc... But regardless, the point stands.

Well, it's possible that the English name James was derived from the French Jacques (which is derived from the Latin IACOBVS). The name Jacques and its derivatives is attested in Old French too (= langue d'Oïl = French Normand). Anyway, the name used in the French version of the Bible is Jacques (and James sounds very foreign to French ears).

I've found this website: The origin of the name James

Quote:

English: from a given name that has the same origin as Jacob but that is now felt to be a separate name in its own right. This is largely because in the Authorized Version of the Bible (1611) the form James is used in the New Testament as the name of two of Christ's apostles (James the brother of John and James the brother of Andrew), whereas in the Old Testament the brother of Esau is called Jacob. The form James comes from Latin Jacobus via Late Latin Jac(o)mus, which also gave rise to Jaime, the regular form of the name in Spanish (as opposed to the learned Jacobo).

Chris Weimer · 05-11-2005, 04:14 PM

Yes, quite simply. The Greek words of Iakwb and Iakwbos became condensed into Yaqob in Aramaic, since Aramaic wouldn't normally distinguish the two.

For your counterarguement, two different words being condensed into one isn't necessarily the same thing, but you have to show examples. What words specifically are being condensed into one Greek word?

Chris Weimer · 05-11-2005, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prometheus_fr

Well, it's possible that the English name James was derived from the French Jacques (which is derived from the Latin IACOBVS). The name Jacques and its derivatives is attested in Old French too (= langue d'Oïl = French Normand). Anyway, the name used in the French version of the Bible is Jacques (and James sounds very foreign to French ears).

I've found this website: The origin of the name James

If you notice the website also lists Provencal as being "Jamme, Jammes, Jaulme, Jaulmes, Jaume, Jaumes, Jayume". I guess it helps to specify which French we're talking about here.

French Prometheus · 05-11-2005, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

If you notice the website also lists Provencal as being "Jamme, Jammes, Jaulme, Jaulmes, Jaume, Jaumes, Jayume". I guess it helps to specify which French we're talking about here.

Well, Provençal is not a French dialect since it's not derived from Langue d'Oïl.

Actually, it's not even a dialect at all. It's a Romance language in its own right.

It seems that the name for James in Provençal is close to the Spanish Jaime.

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05-11-2005, 03:53 PM	#13
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	Prometheus - I could have sworn I read somewhere that English got it from French, of course, it might be Norman, Provencal, Langue D'oil, Langue D'oc, etc... But regardless, the point stands. Judge - I've presented the arguement as clearly as possible, and not only does everyone else get it here, but at that other forum they get it also. What don't you understand. And do you have an Aramaic in two forms that get's compressed to one in Greek?

05-11-2005, 04:14 PM	#18
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	Yes, quite simply. The Greek words of Iakwb and Iakwbos became condensed into Yaqob in Aramaic, since Aramaic wouldn't normally distinguish the two. For your counterarguement, two different words being condensed into one isn't necessarily the same thing, but you have to show examples. What words specifically are being condensed into one Greek word?

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