Chris Weimer

The name for the patriarch Jacob is ιακωβ, but the name for James is ιακωβος. Why else would the distinction be made if it was translated from the Aramaic as only Yaqob?

judge

Hi chris, can you explain a little further.
Aso can you point to the NTbook you refer to?

Thanks

Chris Weimer

Yes, judge, if you look at Matthew 10:2-3, 13:55, etc... (there's actually 10 verses in the NT which mention James, the French equivalent of Jacob) the word used is Iakwbos but for the patriarch Jakob (Matthew 1:2, 1:15 etc...) the word is Iakwb. But the Peshitta is non-discriminating - it has Yaqob for both names. Why the difference if it didn't stem from Greek usage?

judge

I'm not sure what your question about "usage" means?

You are saying that greek was "used"? Used by whom?
Are you suggesting that Jesus and the disciples would have used greek themselves?

Thanks

spin

I'd say Chris's comment is purely a philological one. The text evinces two forms of what would be in Hebrew YQWB, one for The Hebrew bible figure and another for the 1st c. figure. This is analogous for the Hebrew name MRYM, where we find the HB figure as mariam in Greek and the nt figure as maria.

If one were translating out of Syriac, why would a translator use two forms when the original only had one?

One usually doesn't get two forms out of one, but one often gets one form out of two original forms.


spin

Chris Weimer

Judge, I'm talking about the language that the NT was written in. You have YQWB in the Syriac, but both Iakwb and Iakwbos depending on who it is. If it is the brother of Jesus or the other disciple James, the word is Iakwbos, but the patriarch Jacob is Iakwb.

judge

Hi spin, are you prepared to use this logic the other way?

If the Aramaic has two forms and the greek has one would this therefore be an argument for Aramaic primacy?

judge

I'm still not exactly sure what your argument is Chris. If you can state it as clearly as possible I will try to consider it and respond.
Can you explain exactly and precisely why this is evidence the Aramaic was translated from the greek.

Thanks

Peter Kirby

I know what Chris and spin mean when they refer to "two forms" of the same Greek word being used for one proper name, here Jacob--with the omicron-sigma ending for the NT figure, and without that ending for the figure in the Hebrew Bible. I don't know what you mean by "two forms." You'll have to be more specific.

best,
Peter Kirby

Peter Kirby

What don't you understand about the argument?

best,
Peter Kirby