Nemoralis

I just finished Lee Strobel's A Case for Christ. It certainly wasn't astounding by any means...just typical Strobel stuff. But it did raise some questions for me.

For one, why would Jesus' closest followers die for a cause that they made up? It does seem unlikely that the story could be extrapolated so quickly after his death. I'm not as familiar with biblical history as I should be (which is the reason I read Strobel's book) so pardon me if this issue has been beaten to death. I have some other questions too but I'll add those in when they come up. I can't really remember everything at the moment and I don't have the book with me.

pob14

Why would Joseph Smith's followers die for a made-up cause? How about Jim Jones's or Marshall Applewhite's (Heaven's Gate)?

JoeWallack

Living In The Real World



JW:
The Original Gospel "Mark" says the exact opposite. Jesus' closest followers Explicitly Refused to die for a Jesus' cause:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Mark_14

"43 And straightway, while he yet spake, cometh Judas, one of the twelve, and with him a multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and the scribes and the elders.

44 Now he that betrayed him had given them a token, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that is he; take him, and lead him away safely.

45 And when he was come, straightway he came to him, and saith, Rabbi; and kissed him.

46 And they laid hands on him, and took him.

47 But a certain one of them that stood by drew his sword, and smote the servant of the high priest, and struck off his ear.

48 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Are ye come out, as against a robber, with swords and staves to seize me?

49 I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but [this is done] that the scriptures might be fulfilled.

50 And they all left him, and fled."


JW:
And so, According to "Mark", Jesus' closest followers not only Refused to die for a cause, they refused to even get arrested. This is not a casual point by "Mark", it is a major Theme:

1) "The Disciples" are consistently portrayed as The Negative example of Disciple behavior.

2) The Disciples' Failure of abandonment Fulfills prophecy.

3) The Ending (the un-Forged one) makes clear that the Failure is Final.

No, I Am afraid that as Hands said in the classic "Die Hard", "This time Grace does not write off into the Son set with "John" Wayne."

Imagine if you will the absurdity of Peter being responsible for a Gospel that depicts him as a text-book Failure of being a Disciple of Jesus and using this Gospel to try and convince people that he was a successful and authorized Disciple of Jesus.



Joseph

STORY, n.
A narrative, commonly untrue. The truth of the stories here following has, however, not been successfully impeached.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

hasselhoff

Is there any evidence that they were actually martyred? AFAIK that belief is pure tradition, with many contradictory claims about their deaths.

Malachi151

#1) Exactly.

#2) What evidence do we have of any of "Jesus followers" dying for the cause anyway?

The only so-called apostles that are reported to have been killed for the cause are possibly Paul, though this is not certain and Paul never met Jesus, James, though he didn't intentionally martyr himself according to the story, and Peter.

#3) The story about James and Peter are certainly just fabricated fictions.

#4) The story about Paul is probably fiction, and doesn't even say that he died anyway.

So, who are these followers of Jesus that died for the cause?

Yeah, there were martyrs in the 2nd and 3rd century, but none of these people knew Jesus even according to the legends.

Again, as was said before, we one can come up with tons of examples from any period of time and any culture of people who die for a belief that is not true, that's part of what makes religion so dangerous. Secondly, if these people believed in eternal life and that they would go to heaven, then why would dying for the cause even be seen as a big deal to them anyway?

Diogenes the Cynic

If Josephus' passage on James is accepted as authentic, then he provides one non-Christian claim for James being put to death by the High Priest Ananus. He does not say WHY James was killed, though, and does not say James accepted it willingly. The traditions of apostolic martyrdom are thinly supported (or even asserted) even within the NT.

Not only is there no real historical evidence for the claim that the apostles were martyred for their beliefs, we don't really even know what their beliefs WERE. There isn't a single primary claim that any apostle or eyewitness of Jesus ever claimed to have been witness to a physical resurrection. All claims in that regard are secondary at best.

Paul claims that Christ made "appearances," but does not go into detail about the nature of these appearances. He does not mention an empty tomb or speak in terms of a physical body walking around. He does not distingusih between Christ's appearances to Cephas or James or the 12 or the 500 and his own visionary experiences of Christ, which indicates that he might have seen prior appearances as purely visionary as well.

Not that there's anything extraordinary about dying for a religious belief anyway. There's a big hole on Manhattan Island which can testify to that.

Malachi151

There is no Josephus passage, there is just Origen and others following Origen who claim that Josephus said this, but its not found in any of his writings, and indeed contradicts things in his writings. The best explanation is that Origen got Josephus mixed -up with Hegesippus (sp?), something that was not uncommon.

Diogenes the Cynic

Antiquities 20:9:1:
Origen claimed that Josephus blamed the destruction of Jerusalem on the execution of James, a claim which is NOT made by Josephus in either Antiquities or Wars, and which could indeed represent something Origen got mixed up with claim by Hegesippus, but the reference to an execution of James "the bother of Jesus, called [or the "so-called"] Christ" is indeed present in Antiquities and is generally accepted as authentic. I have my doubts about its authenticity (I think the "called Christ" part might be interpolated) but it IS in Antiquities as we have it.

Malachi151

Yes, this is true, but certainly an interpolation, which I suspect was caused by Origen in the first place, see:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar...ty_of_the_Jews

You have to scroll down a ways to get to the discussion on the passage.

Steven Carr

There are lots of reasons why people would die for a lie, if you feel you are serving a greater cause.

I'm sure there are American soldiers in Iraq who doubt Bush's claims that Iraq was a clear and present danger, yet are proud to fight for their country.

If the apostles thought that Israel would be wiped out by the Romans unless they listened to the message of Jesus, then a few white lies about Jesus become understandable.

So even the basic premise of Strobel's argument is wrong.