Freethought & Rationalism Archive

God Fearing Atheist · 05-06-2009, 09:34 AM

Is anyone aware of a source that details the manuscripts and/or patristic witnesses to the canons of Laodicea, specifically number 60? I'm curious to see exactly which ones include it and their dates.

Toto · 05-06-2009, 10:12 AM

interesting . . . http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08794a.htm

Quote:

There are extant, in Greek, sixty canons of a Council of Laodicea. That this assembly was actually held, we have the testimony of Theodoret ("In Coloss.", ii, 18, P.L., LXXXII, 619). There has been much discussion as to the date: some have even thought that the council must have preceded that of Nicaea (325), or at least that of Constantinople (381) It seems safer to consider it as subsequent to the latter. The canons are, undoubtedly, only a resume of an older text, and indeed appear to be derived from two distinct collections. They are of great importance in the history of discipline and liturgy. Protestants have often, but quite without reason, invoke one of them in opposition to the veneration of angels.

Canons

andrewcriddle · 05-06-2009, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by God Fearing Atheist

Is anyone aware of a source that details the manuscripts and/or patristic witnesses to the canons of Laodicea, specifically number 60? I'm curious to see exactly which ones include it and their dates.

According to Metzger "Canon of the New Testament" (or via: amazon.co.uk) p 210 canon number 60 is omitted by some Greek witnesses and most Latin and Syriac witnesses.

Andrew Criddle

God Fearing Atheist · 05-06-2009, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by God Fearing Atheist

Is anyone aware of a source that details the manuscripts and/or patristic witnesses to the canons of Laodicea, specifically number 60? I'm curious to see exactly which ones include it and their dates.

According to Metzger "Canon of the New Testament" (or via: amazon.co.uk) p 210 canon number 60 is omitted by some Greek witnesses and most Latin and Syriac witnesses.

Andrew Criddle

Yeah, I know. Rereading Metzger last night is what spawned the questioned.

andrewcriddle · 05-06-2009, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by God Fearing Atheist

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

According to Metzger "Canon of the New Testament" (or via: amazon.co.uk) p 210 canon number 60 is omitted by some Greek witnesses and most Latin and Syriac witnesses.

Andrew Criddle

Yeah, I know. Rereading Metzger last night is what spawned the questioned.

There is more evidence in Hahneman's Muratorian Fragment p 157 The Muratorian Fragment (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Andrew Criddle

mountainman · 05-06-2009, 05:37 PM

WIKI - Biblical Canon

The 59th canon restricted the readings in church to only
the canonical books of the Old and New Testaments. The
60th canon listed these books, with the New Testament
containing 26 books, omitting the Book of Revelation,
and the Old Testament including the 22 books of the
Hebrew Bible plus the Book of Baruch and the Epistle
of Jeremy.

The 60th canon is missing from some manuscripts containing
decrees of the council. Some have concluded from this omission
that the canon was added later to specify the extent of the
preceding 59th canon. Cyril of Jerusalem circa 350 produced
a list matching that from the Council of Laodicea.[1]

The footnote refers to Bible Research > Canon > Lists > Council of Laodicea

Council of Laodicea (about A.D. 363).

The authenticity of paragraph 60 has been doubted by many scholars because it is absent from various manuscripts containing the decrees of the regional (Galatian) Council of Laodicea. The list may have been added later. On the omission of Revelation see Cyril of Jerusalem. We give the Greek text according to B.F. Westcott, A General Survey of the History of the Canon of the New Testament (5th ed. Edinburgh, 1881). Here is the primary paragraph 59, present in the manuscripts ...

νθʹ. Ὅτι οὐ δεῖ ἰδιωτικοὺς ψαλμοὺς λέγεσθαι ἐν τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ, οὐδὲ ἀκανόνιστα βιβλία, ἀλλὰ μόνα τὰ κανονικὰ τῆς καινῆς καὶ παλαιᾶς διαθήκης.

59. Let no private psalms nor any uncanonical books be read in church, but only the canonical ones of the New and Old Testament.

As we can see the 59th canon is concerned with what is not to be read. According to the above many commentators suspect that Canon 60 was added later. This suggests that at that time the orthodox were more concerned over what should not be read than they were concerned over what should be read (to the people, who could not read). This is similar to a "Prohibition Era". The new testament apocrypha were extremely popular renditions and clones and extensions of the canon. They were forbidden to be read. Thou shalt not read the Apocrypha!!

God Fearing Atheist · 05-06-2009, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

There is more evidence in Hahneman's Muratorian Fragment p 157 The Muratorian Fragment (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Andrew Criddle

Thanks for that Andrew. One of the books he cites, Zahn's "Geschichte des neutestamentlichen Kanons," is available at my library, so i'll have a little look-see.

Roger Pearse · 05-06-2009, 10:53 PM

Erm, what is canon 60 about?

Mss witness; I've never needed to know this sort of thing for canons, I must say. Perhaps some collections of church law? They must need to be critically edited, like every other ancient text.

Toto · 05-06-2009, 11:22 PM

new advent

Quote:

Canon 59
No psalms composed by private individuals nor any uncanonical books may be read in the church, but only the Canonical Books of the Old and New Testaments.

Canon 60
[N. B.— This Canon is of most questionable genuineness.]

These are all the books of Old Testament appointed to be read: 1, Genesis of the world; 2, The Exodus from Egypt; 3, Leviticus; 4, Numbers; 5, Deuteronomy; 6, Joshua, the son of Nun; 7, Judges, Ruth; 8, Esther; 9, Of the Kings, First and Second; 10, Of the Kings, Third and Fourth; 11, Chronicles, First and Second; 12, Esdras, First and Second; 13, The Book of Psalms; 14, The Proverbs of Solomon; 15, Ecclesiastes; 16, The Song of Songs; 17, Job; 18, The Twelve Prophets; 19, Isaiah; 20, Jeremiah, and Baruch, the Lamentations, and the Epistle; 21, Ezekiel; 22, Daniel.

And these are the books of the New Testament: Four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; The Acts of the Apostles; Seven Catholic Epistles, to wit, one of James, two of Peter, three of John, one of Jude; Fourteen Epistles of Paul, one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Galatians, one to the Ephesians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Hebrews, two to Timothy, one to Titus, and one to Philemon.

The informed speculation is that canon 60 was added on to explain canon 59, as a marginal gloss of sort.

Huon · 05-07-2009, 01:45 AM

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers2/N...m#P2975_533737
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers2/N...m#P3366_596435
Canon XXXV.
Christians must not forsake the Church of God, and go away and invoke angels and gather assemblies, which things are forbidden. If, therefore, any one shall be found engaged in this covert idolatry, let him be anathema; for he has forsaken our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and has gone over to idolatry.
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers2/N...m#P3671_623191

from Voltaire : "The Council of Laodicea, held in 360, did not accept Revelation among the canonical books. It was very curious that Laodicea, which was a Church to which the book of Revelation was sent [Revelation 1,11], rejected a treasure meant for her ; and that the bishop of Ephesus, who attended the council, rejected too this book of saint John, buried in Ephesus."

05-06-2009, 09:34 AM	#1
God Fearing Atheist Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Massachusetts, USA -- Let's Go Red Sox! Posts: 1,500	Council of Laodicea: Witnesses to the canons? Is anyone aware of a source that details the manuscripts and/or patristic witnesses to the canons of Laodicea, specifically number 60? I'm curious to see exactly which ones include it and their dates.

05-06-2009, 05:37 PM	#6
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	WIKI - Biblical Canon The 59th canon restricted the readings in church to only the canonical books of the Old and New Testaments. The 60th canon listed these books, with the New Testament containing 26 books, omitting the Book of Revelation, and the Old Testament including the 22 books of the Hebrew Bible plus the Book of Baruch and the Epistle of Jeremy. The 60th canon is missing from some manuscripts containing decrees of the council. Some have concluded from this omission that the canon was added later to specify the extent of the preceding 59th canon. Cyril of Jerusalem circa 350 produced a list matching that from the Council of Laodicea.[1] The footnote refers to Bible Research > Canon > Lists > Council of Laodicea Council of Laodicea (about A.D. 363). The authenticity of paragraph 60 has been doubted by many scholars because it is absent from various manuscripts containing the decrees of the regional (Galatian) Council of Laodicea. The list may have been added later. On the omission of Revelation see Cyril of Jerusalem. We give the Greek text according to B.F. Westcott, A General Survey of the History of the Canon of the New Testament (5th ed. Edinburgh, 1881). Here is the primary paragraph 59, present in the manuscripts ... νθʹ. Ὅτι οὐ δεῖ ἰδιωτικοὺς ψαλμοὺς λέγεσθαι ἐν τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ, οὐδὲ ἀκανόνιστα βιβλία, ἀλλὰ μόνα τὰ κανονικὰ τῆς καινῆς καὶ παλαιᾶς διαθήκης. 59. Let no private psalms nor any uncanonical books be read in church, but only the canonical ones of the New and Old Testament. As we can see the 59th canon is concerned with what is not to be read. According to the above many commentators suspect that Canon 60 was added later. This suggests that at that time the orthodox were more concerned over what should not be read than they were concerned over what should be read (to the people, who could not read). This is similar to a "Prohibition Era". The new testament apocrypha were extremely popular renditions and clones and extensions of the canon. They were forbidden to be read. Thou shalt not read the Apocrypha!!

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05-06-2009, 10:53 PM	#8
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Erm, what is canon 60 about? Mss witness; I've never needed to know this sort of thing for canons, I must say. Perhaps some collections of church law? They must need to be critically edited, like every other ancient text.

05-07-2009, 01:45 AM	#10
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	http://www.tertullian.org/fathers2/N...m#P2975_533737 http://www.tertullian.org/fathers2/N...m#P3366_596435 Canon XXXV. Christians must not forsake the Church of God, and go away and invoke angels and gather assemblies, which things are forbidden. If, therefore, any one shall be found engaged in this covert idolatry, let him be anathema; for he has forsaken our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and has gone over to idolatry. http://www.tertullian.org/fathers2/N...m#P3671_623191 from Voltaire : "The Council of Laodicea, held in 360, did not accept Revelation among the canonical books. It was very curious that Laodicea, which was a Church to which the book of Revelation was sent [Revelation 1,11], rejected a treasure meant for her ; and that the bishop of Ephesus, who attended the council, rejected too this book of saint John, buried in Ephesus."

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