Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 06-04-2009, 02:41 PM

Royal Ontario Museum is hosting an exhibit of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

They seem to have tried to avoid the controversy over whether these ancient documents are connected to the Essenes by starting their lecture series with a talk by Christopher Hitchens, author of God is not Great, on the issue of why the Ten Commandments "are nothing more than "a blizzard of contradictions," simply pure nonsense that was man-made and not divinely inspired."

Quote:

But Mr. Hitchens reserved his greatest vitriol for the last commandment, which prohibits the coveting of a neighbor's wife, property or cattle.

"The tenth commandment is unique; no specific action condemned. Instead we have the first recorded incident of thought crime. You can't do it and you can't think of it. It's totalitarian. Because it convicts you from what's in your head. It crushes the spirit."

Roger Pearse · 06-05-2009, 04:01 AM

Hmm. So who's wife was he screwing, we might wonder?

Steven Carr · 06-05-2009, 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Hmm. So who's wife was he screwing, we might wonder?

Perhaps it was the cattle....

Christianity does like declaring things to be thought crimes.

Apparently, you are not allowed even to be angry with people, according to the Sermon on the Mount, on the spurious grounds that if you start being angry with people, you might end up murdering them.

maryhelena · 06-05-2009, 05:45 AM

I did look through the list of upcoming lectures and found this interesting one.

Quote:

http://www.rom.on.ca/scrolls/lectures_a2.php

Wednesday, September 16

The Historical Problem of the Essenes

Dr. Steve Mason, Professor, Department of History, and Canada Research Chair in Greco-Roman Cultural Interaction, York University, Toronto.

I followed a link to this webpage.

Quote:

http://www.bib-arch.org/e-features/josephus-essenes.asp

Professor Steve Mason asserts in his article “Did the Essenes Write the Dead Sea Scrolls? Don’t Rely on Josephus” (BAR, November/December 2008) that the texts of Josephus cannot be relied upon to support the conclusion that the Essenes were the authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the inhabitants of Qumran.

From comments on the site. Steve Mason

Quote:

So I propose Josephus' invention of this group at this point, for momentary needs, as what seems to me the best explanation on the literary and historical levels. Josephus demonstrably invents a lot of other material ad hoc, so it shouldn't be shocking, and it would explain the problems listed. Of course, I could be wrong. That doesn't matter to me: history is about the process of understanding evidence and trying to explain it. I'm not offended by genuine disagreement, not at all. But the way to challenge me is to engage my argument and my evidence, not to misrepresent it as some whacky pontification based on reading Josephus' mind.

I Googled Dr Mason and found the following.

Quote:

http://www.chairs.gc.ca/web/chairhol...e_e.asp?id=780

Research involves

Completion of the world's first English translation and commentary - in both hard copy and on-line format - on the complete 30-volume body of work written by Flavius Josephus, the most significant Jewish author of Early Rome (200 BCE-75 CE).

Dr. Mason is at the forefront of international scholarship regarding the work of Josephus and its historical context. He has written four monographs on the subject, which have been translated into several languages, and he now serves as editor of the world's first complete commentary on Josephus, along with a modern translation, in ten English volumes.

It looks like Dr Mason might be the man to keep an eye on....

Quote:

http://members.bib-arch.org/publicat...=5&ArticleID=4

Will the Real Josephus Please Stand Up?

By Steve Mason

Susan2 · 06-05-2009, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Hmm. So who's wife was he screwing, we might wonder?

Toto · 06-05-2009, 08:28 AM

Let's avoid Mr. Hitchens fascinating personal life. His most notable vice is alcohol, which doesn't seem to be mentioned in the Ten Commandments. It is a bit silly to think that his criticism of the 10C is because he wants to commit adultery. Most adulters don't reject the Bible, and if he were Christian he would just be forgiven in any case.

xaxxat · 06-05-2009, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Hmm. So who's wife was he screwing, we might wonder?

Probably one of those xian women that are going through their 2nd, 3rd or 4th divorce...

Toto · 06-05-2009, 08:43 AM

[staffwarn]No more snarky comments on adultery[/staffwarn]

andrewcriddle · 06-06-2009, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

I did look through the list of upcoming lectures and found this interesting one.

Quote:

http://www.rom.on.ca/scrolls/lectures_a2.php

Wednesday, September 16

The Historical Problem of the Essenes

Dr. Steve Mason, Professor, Department of History, and Canada Research Chair in Greco-Roman Cultural Interaction, York University, Toronto.

I followed a link to this webpage.

Quote:

http://www.bib-arch.org/e-features/josephus-essenes.asp

Professor Steve Mason asserts in his article “Did the Essenes Write the Dead Sea Scrolls? Don’t Rely on Josephus” (BAR, November/December 2008) that the texts of Josephus cannot be relied upon to support the conclusion that the Essenes were the authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the inhabitants of Qumran.

From comments on the site. Steve Mason

Quote:

So I propose Josephus' invention of this group at this point, for momentary needs, as what seems to me the best explanation on the literary and historical levels. Josephus demonstrably invents a lot of other material ad hoc, so it shouldn't be shocking, and it would explain the problems listed. Of course, I could be wrong. That doesn't matter to me: history is about the process of understanding evidence and trying to explain it. I'm not offended by genuine disagreement, not at all. But the way to challenge me is to engage my argument and my evidence, not to misrepresent it as some whacky pontification based on reading Josephus' mind.

Steve Mason is not suggesting that Josephus invented the Essenes.
He is proposing that the 'marrying' (ie non-celibate) Essenes mentioned by Josephus but by no other ancient writer are an invention of Josephus.

Andrew Criddle

avi · 06-06-2009, 02:53 AM

To me the issue is not whether Josephus misrepresented the habits of the Essenes, or, whether he even invented the group. The real question, at least to me, is how do we verify that the original extant texts, attributed to his authorship, have not been tampered with over the past nineteen centuries? Whether Professor Mason wrote a single volume, ten volumes, or a hundred, if he analyzed forged, redacted, and modified "original" sources, his analysis becomes irrelevant.

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06-05-2009, 04:01 AM	#2
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Hmm. So who's wife was he screwing, we might wonder?

06-05-2009, 08:28 AM	#6
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Let's avoid Mr. Hitchens fascinating personal life. His most notable vice is alcohol, which doesn't seem to be mentioned in the Ten Commandments. It is a bit silly to think that his criticism of the 10C is because he wants to commit adultery. Most adulters don't reject the Bible, and if he were Christian he would just be forgiven in any case.

06-05-2009, 08:43 AM	#8
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	[staffwarn]No more snarky comments on adultery[/staffwarn]

06-06-2009, 02:53 AM	#10
avi Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Location: eastern North America Posts: 1,468	To me the issue is not whether Josephus misrepresented the habits of the Essenes, or, whether he even invented the group. The real question, at least to me, is how do we verify that the original extant texts, attributed to his authorship, have not been tampered with over the past nineteen centuries? Whether Professor Mason wrote a single volume, ten volumes, or a hundred, if he analyzed forged, redacted, and modified "original" sources, his analysis becomes irrelevant.

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