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Old 08-25-2012, 07:16 AM   #11
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Why is Mary touching the 'fringes' of Jesus's garment proof of her faith?
As the mother of the little blighter, she had no option but to handle his clothes. There is no firm evidence that Mary had any love for Jesus, though there is certain evidence to the contrary.

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Just then a woman who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years came up behind him and touched the fringe (kraspedou) of his cloak. [Matthew 9:20]
Because of Mosaic Law, a woman who was considered unclean approached Jesus; but she approached him for a reason that had existed before Moses was lifted out of the Nile. She approached because she believed that the sickness that made her ritually unclean could be healed by divine presence. That faith she believed was what had made Abram into Abraham, the father of Jacob aka Israel, of Israelites, of Jews; and of herself, whose name we do not know. It was Abraham who had been circumcised because of faith, a matter that was secret, a most private distinction, well hidden beneath clothing; because faith was secret, and never, ever signified by religious apparel. Any attempt to assert one's 'Christianity' by means of religious clothing or personal signage was conclusive evidence of pretension. Moses, despite his Law, had not been allowed into the Promised land; so it was mere law that had external trappings; as, one may suppose, it has had ever since.

Merely by touching Jesus' clothing, an unclean woman would have made Jesus ritually unclean. But this woman was healed as she did so. It's odd, apparently anomalous, that the Law of Moses, that circumscribed the actions of all loyal Jews, that was openly signified by tassels around their bodies, both condemned the woman, and yet apparently healed her.

But note that Jesus could not have felt the touch of the woman through a pendant tassel, and indeed Jesus did not feel her touch at all. It was as though the law, that undoubtedly still formally operated, was nevertheless unconnected, at a time of incipient change. As shown by the records of lepers, of Bartimaeus, of the centurion who had needed no touch, healing was to be made by faith, a return to what might be called the true Abrahamic inheritance, after the undeniable failure of Law. Just as Abraham's arm, lifted, with knife in hand to kill Isaac, had demonstrated to him his faith, so did the outstretched hand of this nameless woman show her, and the crowd, that it was faith that had healed her, as law never could.
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Old 08-25-2012, 07:58 AM   #12
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Mary had faith because she knew Jesus was an angel/God
Somewhere inside you, you can do better then this pucky.


because its claimed by roman authors, what Mary stated, doesnt mean mary stated anything.

so much historicity is lost through this cross cultural oral tradion jotted down by another culture, YOUE REACHING far and wide beyond where you should to apply meaning.
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Old 08-25-2012, 10:04 AM   #13
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Stephen,

I only throw this out to you because I know that, if anyone can possibly do so, it is you who can make a mountain of this molehill:

In the DSS Manual of Discipline and twice in the Cairo Ginezeh Damascus Document, it recommends that all read the book HHGW (ההגו). This is usually forced to mean "book of study."

What if it was atbash for צצרפ (TsTsRP)? Then it could be shorthand for ציץ רפא (Tzitz Rapha) or "Healing Fringe."

Insert here the usual wild theory about the interconnection of Jesus, the DSS and the Therapeutae of Egypt.

Ignore the fact that it could also mean "Giant Flowers," suggesting a book of agriculture rather than religious study. Hmmm, maybe these folks were a new agey cult who talked to their plants!

DCH


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Originally Posted by stephan huller View Post
Why is Mary touching the 'fringes' of Jesus's garment proof of her faith?

Quote:
Just then a woman who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years came up behind him and touched the fringe (kraspedou) of his cloak. [Matthew 9:20]
Because the word for 'fringe' in Hebrew means 'wings':

Quote:
Speak unto the children of Israel and bid them that they make them fringes (kanpe) in the borders of their garments throughout their generations and that they put upon the fringe (hakkanap) of the borders a ribband of blue [Numbers 15:38]

Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians and how I bare you on eagles' wings (kanpe) and brought you unto myself [Exodus 19:4]
Do I have to spell this out? Mary had faith because she knew Jesus was an angel/God and reached out and touched his (invisible) wings purifying her of her menstrual flow. Garment (Aramaic mana) is a well established Syriac Christian term for 'essence' or 'body' (an example is Ephrem's pun "Mani (Mani) became a garment (mana) fit to wear out its wearers"). Of course this assumes an Aramaic/Hebrew basis to the gospel. Oh well, life is about choices. Otherwise the story does not make sense in Greek.

There is an important figure in the early rabbinic literature called 'Elisha the man of wings.' I have always thought this is the flying Jesus. For those who don't know what a flying Jesus is read Baarda's insightful essay on the Syriac tradition's interest in this figure.
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Old 08-25-2012, 05:38 PM   #14
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Fringes or tassels (tsitsiyyot in Hebrew and kraspeda in Greek) play a special role in miracle stories. For instance, children grasped those on the tunic of the charismatic grandson of Honi the Circle-Drawer when they begged him to bring rain (bTaan 23a). As the lower edge of the outer garment was not easily reachable, the keenness to touch it suggests that people attributed to these fringes some kind of imaginary power. According to a legend preserved in a Tannaitic midrash, the tassels worn by a young Jew in obedience to a biblical precept (Num. 15:37–39) miraculously enabled him to resist the charms of a beautiful high-class Gentile prostitute,4 and were instrumental in converting her to the Jewish religion. Here as in most similar stories, the miracle is attributed to the faith of the sick person, Jesus simply declaring the fait accompli: ‘Your faith has made you well’. Nevertheless in the mind of the patient and of the onlookers the healing was the work of Jesus. Likewise in the Talmudic story of charismatic rain-making, despite his modest denials the rabbis were convinced that the rain was brought by Abba Hilkiah, grandson of Honi the Circle-Drawer (bTaan 23ab).

-Geza Vermes. The Authentic Gospel of Jesus (pp. 9-10).
I think, as a rule of thumb, it's always better to look at Judaism first.
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Old 08-25-2012, 07:21 PM   #15
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....But note that Jesus could not have felt the touch of the woman through a pendant tassel, and indeed Jesus did not feel her touch at all....
Here we have a typical Apologist who is just an INVENTOR of his own story. In the gMark story, Jesus did "FEEL" her touch even though HE WAS THRONGED by the Multitude.

Please, read the story.


Mark 5:30-31 KJV
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30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said , Who touched my clothes? 31 And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou , Who touched me?
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Old 08-26-2012, 04:39 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by stephan huller View Post
Why is Mary touching the 'fringes' of Jesus's garment proof of her faith?

Quote:
Just then a woman who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years came up behind him and touched the fringe (kraspedou) of his cloak. [Matthew 9:20]
Because the word for 'fringe' in Hebrew means 'wings':

Quote:
Speak unto the children of Israel and bid them that they make them fringes (kanpe) in the borders of their garments throughout their generations and that they put upon the fringe (hakkanap) of the borders a ribband of blue [Numbers 15:38]

Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians and how I bare you on eagles' wings (kanpe) and brought you unto myself [Exodus 19:4]
Do I have to spell this out? Mary had faith because she knew Jesus was an angel/God and reached out and touched his (invisible) wings purifying her of her menstrual flow. Garment (Aramaic mana) is a well established Syriac Christian term for 'essence' or 'body' (an example is Ephrem's pun "Mani (Mani) became a garment (mana) fit to wear out its wearers"). Of course this assumes an Aramaic/Hebrew basis to the gospel. Oh well, life is about choices. Otherwise the story does not make sense in Greek.

There is an important figure in the early rabbinic literature called 'Elisha the man of wings.' I have always thought this is the flying Jesus. For those who don't know what a flying Jesus is read Baarda's insightful essay on the Syriac tradition's interest in this figure.
You are right to draw our attention to this verse because it became a nice little earner for the management. Matt. 9:21; Mark 5:28 - the woman with the haemorrhage just sought the hem of Christ's cloak and was cured. This shows that God uses physical things to effect the supernatural.

The sacred bazaar:

First-Class Relics: Items directly associated with the events of Christ's life (manger, cross, etc.), or the physical remains of a saint (a bone, a hair, skull, a limb, etc.). Traditionally, a martyr's relics are often more prized than the relics of other saints

Second-Class Relics: An item that the saint wore (a shirt, a glove, etc.) Also included is an item that the saint owned or frequently used, for example, a crucifix, rosary, book etc. Again, an item more important in the saint's life is thus a more important relic. Sometimes a second class relic is a part of an item that the saint wore, known as Ex indumentis ("from the clothing").

Third-Class Relics: Any object that is touched to a first- or second-class relic.[19] Most third-class relics are small pieces of cloth, though in the first millennium oil was popular; the Monza ampullae contained oil collected from lamps burning before the major sites of Christ's life, and some reliquaries had holes for oil to be poured in and out again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relic


Abuses
Naturally it was impossible for popular enthusiasm to be roused to so high a pitch in a matter which easily lent itself to error, fraud and greed of gain, without at least the occasional occurrence of many grave abuses.........................


many unprincipled persons found a means of enriching themselves by a sort of trade in these objects of devotion, the majority of which no doubt were fraudulent. At the beginning of the ninth century, as M. Jean Guiraud had shown (Mélanges G. B. de Rossi, 73-95), the exportation of the bodies of martyrs from Rome had assumed the dimensions of a regular commerce, and a certain deacon, Deusdona, acquired an unenviable notoriety in these transactions (see Mon. Germ. Hist.: Script., XV, passim).
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12734a.htm
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