Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 08-24-2012, 11:37 PM

Why is Mary touching the 'fringes' of Jesus's garment proof of her faith?

Quote:

Just then a woman who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years came up behind him and touched the fringe (kraspedou) of his cloak. [Matthew 9:20]

Because the word for 'fringe' in Hebrew means 'wings':

Quote:

Speak unto the children of Israel and bid them that they make them fringes (kanpe) in the borders of their garments throughout their generations and that they put upon the fringe (hakkanap) of the borders a ribband of blue [Numbers 15:38]

Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians and how I bare you on eagles' wings (kanpe) and brought you unto myself [Exodus 19:4]

Do I have to spell this out? Mary had faith because she knew Jesus was an angel/God and reached out and touched his (invisible) wings purifying her of her menstrual flow. Garment (Aramaic mana) is a well established Syriac Christian term for 'essence' or 'body' (an example is Ephrem's pun "Mani (Mani) became a garment (mana) fit to wear out its wearers"). Of course this assumes an Aramaic/Hebrew basis to the gospel. Oh well, life is about choices. Otherwise the story does not make sense in Greek.

There is an important figure in the early rabbinic literature called 'Elisha the man of wings.' I have always thought this is the flying Jesus. For those who don't know what a flying Jesus is read Baarda's insightful essay on the Syriac tradition's interest in this figure.

maryhelena · 08-25-2012, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Why is Mary touching the 'fringes' of Jesus's garment proof of her faith?

Quote:

Just then a woman who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years came up behind him and touched the fringe (kraspedou) of his cloak. [Matthew 9:20]

Because the word for 'fringe' in Hebrew means 'wings':

Quote:

Speak unto the children of Israel and bid them that they make them fringes (kanpe) in the borders of their garments throughout their generations and that they put upon the fringe (hakkanap) of the borders a ribband of blue [Numbers 15:38]

Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians and how I bare you on eagles' wings (kanpe) and brought you unto myself [Exodus 19:4]

Do I have to spell this out? Mary had faith because she knew Jesus was an angel/God and reached out and touched his (invisible) wings purifying her of her menstrual flow. Garment (Aramaic mana) is a well established Syriac Christian term for 'essence' or 'body' (an example is Ephrem's pun "Mani (Mani) became a garment (mana) fit to wear out its wearers"). Of course this assumes an Aramaic/Hebrew basis to the gospel. Oh well, life is about choices. Otherwise the story does not make sense in Greek.

There is an important figure in the early rabbinic literature called 'Elisha the man of wings.' I have always thought this is the flying Jesus. For those who don't know what a flying Jesus is read Baarda's insightful essay on the Syriac tradition's interest in this figure.

OK - lets spell this out...

Christ myth theory

Quote:

The Christ myth theory (also known as Jesus mythicism, the Jesus myth theory and the nonexistence hypothesis) is the idea that Jesus of Nazareth was not a historical person, but is a fictional or mythological character created by the early Christian community.[1][2][3][4] Some proponents argue that events or sayings associated with the figure of Jesus in the New Testament may have been drawn from one or more individuals who actually existed, but that none of them were in any sense the founder of Christianity

"fringe' in Hebrew means 'wings" - and wings = "flying Jesus". What relevance this has as a mythicist counter argument to the Jesus historicists - heaven only knows...

Stephan, mystic type arguments are irrelevant, they will not further the debate between the JC historicists and the JC ahistoricists. Arguments based upon language and literary constructs are having difficulties enough - to burden the debate with arguments of a mystic nature is a waste of bandwidth.

Sure, mysticism maybe an interesting avenue for those so inclined - but it's not an area of research that is going to resolve the bigger debate between JC historicists and JC ahistoricists.

We need to stay focused on the main debate.

rizdek · 08-25-2012, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Why is Mary touching the 'fringes' of Jesus's garment proof of her faith?

Quote:

Just then a woman who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years came up behind him and touched the fringe (kraspedou) of his cloak. [Matthew 9:20]

Because the word for 'fringe' in Hebrew means 'wings':

Quote:

Speak unto the children of Israel and bid them that they make them fringes (kanpe) in the borders of their garments throughout their generations and that they put upon the fringe (hakkanap) of the borders a ribband of blue [Numbers 15:38]

Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians and how I bare you on eagles' wings (kanpe) and brought you unto myself [Exodus 19:4]

Do I have to spell this out? Mary had faith because she knew Jesus was an angel/God and reached out and touched his (invisible) wings purifying her of her menstrual flow. Garment (Aramaic mana) is a well established Syriac Christian term for 'essence' or 'body' (an example is Ephrem's pun "Mani (Mani) became a garment (mana) fit to wear out its wearers"). Of course this assumes an Aramaic/Hebrew basis to the gospel. Oh well, life is about choices. Otherwise the story does not make sense in Greek.

There is an important figure in the early rabbinic literature called 'Elisha the man of wings.' I have always thought this is the flying Jesus. For those who don't know what a flying Jesus is read Baarda's insightful essay on the Syriac tradition's interest in this figure.

I find this interesting. Of course I think the gospels are primarily myth and Jesus, myth or real man wasn't the son of any god. But if the word meaning hem really means wings, it means they were handing down stories about an "angel-like" being, not just a man. This takes me one step away from the idea that these stories arose about a man and more toward them being based, perhaps on drug induced hallucinations or just myth from the local myth factory. Thanks

stephan huller · 08-25-2012, 12:53 AM

Quote:

We need to stay focused on the main debate.

Why debate? And in order to have a debate with someone you have to find a worthy opponent, someone that takes you seriously. Who is taking you seriously that you want to debate so badly?

I don't need to be told what is appropriate by someone with no ancient language skills. Continue your 'debate' by all means, just not here ...

stephan huller · 08-25-2012, 12:54 AM

It's worth noting that when Augustine typically explains that Paul means 'least' he does so by associating Paul with the fringes on garments and Matthew 9:20 and related texts. Apparently his idea is that the fringe is the 'least' or lowest part of the garment.

maryhelena · 08-25-2012, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Quote:

We need to stay focused on the main debate.

Why debate? And in order to have a debate with someone you have to find a worthy opponent, someone that takes you seriously. Who is taking you seriously that you want to debate so badly?

I don't need to be told what is appropriate by someone with no ancient language skills. Continue your 'debate' by all means, just not here ...

This is the title of your OP:

What the Exegesis of the Gospel According to 'Jesus Mythicism' Actually Looked Like

Once you bring 'Jesus Mythicism' into your OP - you are making a distinction between 'Jesus Mythicism' and Jesus Historicism. And it is in that connection that I find your equation, "fringe' in Hebrew means 'wings" - and wings = "flying Jesus", of no benefit, of no relevance to that debate.

By all means tell me to get lost on your thread - but, Stephan, it's not me that you have to answer to - the debate is with the JC historicists. And in that debate, your mystic interpretation, your mystic equation of 'wings' to 'flying Jesus' - would not be able to stand the heat it would get from the JC historicists. For them, JC is flesh and blood - not a flying Jesus with wings...

Actually, your OP piece would have been better entitled:

What the Exegesis of the Gospel According to 'Jesus Mysticism ' Actually Looked Like

That, I would suggest, is more in line with what your interpretation is dealing with.

PS....by the way - there are no private threads on this forum...

sotto voce · 08-25-2012, 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Why is Mary touching the 'fringes' of Jesus's garment proof of her faith?

Quote:

Just then a woman who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years came up behind him and touched the fringe (kraspedou) of his cloak. [Matthew 9:20]

Because the word for 'fringe' in Hebrew means 'wings':

Quote:

Speak unto the children of Israel and bid them that they make them fringes (kanpe) in the borders of their garments throughout their generations and that they put upon the fringe (hakkanap) of the borders a ribband of blue [Numbers 15:38]

Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians and how I bare you on eagles' wings (kanpe) and brought you unto myself [Exodus 19:4]

Do I have to spell this out? Mary had faith because she knew Jesus was an angel/God and reached out and touched his (invisible) wings purifying her of her menstrual flow. Garment (Aramaic mana) is a well established Syriac Christian term for 'essence' or 'body' (an example is Ephrem's pun "Mani (Mani) became a garment (mana) fit to wear out its wearers"). Of course this assumes an Aramaic/Hebrew basis to the gospel. Oh well, life is about choices. Otherwise the story does not make sense in Greek.

There is an important figure in the early rabbinic literature called 'Elisha the man of wings.' I have always thought this is the flying Jesus. For those who don't know what a flying Jesus is read Baarda's insightful essay on the Syriac tradition's interest in this figure.

It's not 1st April. I checked.

andrewcriddle · 08-25-2012, 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Why is Mary touching the 'fringes' of Jesus's garment proof of her faith?

Quote:

Just then a woman who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years came up behind him and touched the fringe (kraspedou) of his cloak. [Matthew 9:20]

This woman is not identified in the New Testament as being called Mary.

Andrew Criddle

Vorkosigan · 08-25-2012, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Of course this assumes an Aramaic/Hebrew basis to the gospel. Oh well, life is about choices.

Stephen, even if your assertion is true, it may simply mean that the writer understands those languages. In communities full of multilingual speakers, multilingual puns and wordplays are the norm.

But it strikes me as all just coincidence. Her touching the fringe of the garment emphasizes her lowliness and marginalization. No need to go beyond that.

Vorkosigan

aeebee50 · 08-25-2012, 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Why is Mary touching the 'fringes' of Jesus's garment proof of her faith?

Quote:

Just then a woman who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years came up behind him and touched the fringe (kraspedou) of his cloak. [Matthew 9:20]

Because the word for 'fringe' in Hebrew means 'wings':

Quote:

Speak unto the children of Israel and bid them that they make them fringes (kanpe) in the borders of their garments throughout their generations and that they put upon the fringe (hakkanap) of the borders a ribband of blue [Numbers 15:38]

Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians and how I bare you on eagles' wings (kanpe) and brought you unto myself [Exodus 19:4]

Do I have to spell this out? Mary had faith because she knew Jesus was an angel/God and reached out and touched his (invisible) wings purifying her of her menstrual flow. Garment (Aramaic mana) is a well established Syriac Christian term for 'essence' or 'body' (an example is Ephrem's pun "Mani (Mani) became a garment (mana) fit to wear out its wearers"). Of course this assumes an Aramaic/Hebrew basis to the gospel. Oh well, life is about choices. Otherwise the story does not make sense in Greek.

There is an important figure in the early rabbinic literature called 'Elisha the man of wings.' I have always thought this is the flying Jesus. For those who don't know what a flying Jesus is read Baarda's insightful essay on the Syriac tradition's interest in this figure.

You always come up with interesting information. Thanks.

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08-25-2012, 12:54 AM	#5
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	It's worth noting that when Augustine typically explains that Paul means 'least' he does so by associating Paul with the fringes on garments and Matthew 9:20 and related texts. Apparently his idea is that the fringe is the 'least' or lowest part of the garment.

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