Johnny Skeptic

Lee Merrill and I have agreed to a formal debate on the Babylon prophecy, but I don't think that Lee will mind if I open a new thread on the topic so everyone can participate. Lee's proposition is as follows:

The prophecy that Babylon will never be rebuilt or reinhabited (Isa. 13:19, Jer. 25:12, Jer. 51:26) has been and is being fulfilled, and this is a clear demonstration of God's supernatural power.

I invite Lee to present his opening arguments.

Johnny Skeptic

I misspelled Babylon in my title. Is there a way that I can correct it, or will a moderator please correct it?

Sven

If you indeed agreed on a formal debate, don't you think Lee had the Formal Debates&Discussion forum in mind?

Edit: OK, thanks for your message (in private). I misunderstood this, sorry.
But I wonder if you know about the ongoing "debate" with Lee on exactly this topic?

Johnny Skeptic

Yes, Sven, I am aware of Lee's other debate on the Babylon propehcy, but I have a much different approach to debating it, and I have been debating it by private e-mails with Lee for weeks. If Lee does not present his opening arguments within a few days, I am sure that he will not mind if I post some our private e-mail exchanges on the topic.

Sven

I'm looking forward to this! :thumbs:

Johnny Skeptic

Following are excerpts from some of the recent e-mail exchanges that Lee Merrill and I had regarding the Babylon prophecy.

Lee: I tell people *they* may rebuild Babylon. I pick it because it is actually falsifiable, by the very people who say there is no really fulfilled prophecy.

Johnny: If Babylon were to be rebuilt, would you give up Christianity?

Lee: Yes, I would give it up.

Johnny: It cannot logically be ruled out that the
people back then might have simply preferred to build the major city of Baghdad in another location rather than rebuild the city of Babylon in the same location.

Lee: Except they also tried to rebuild on the same location!

Johnny: In fact, Christians have never reasonably proven any prophecy that meets the
requirements of dating, fulfillment, not being a lucky guess, and being improbable enough to
indicate divine inspiration.

Lee: Then you may try and rebuild this city, that would be the best way to resolve this.

Johnny: Even if they did initially plan to rebuild at the same location and changed their minds and instead built Baghdad 55 miles away on the Tigris River, which was an excellent and
possibly better location, you can't prove that God had anything to do with it.

Lee: Well, you may try and rebuild on the same location! And I do think Saddam did try this: " Adjacent to Nebuchadnezzar's ancient palace and overlooking the Euphrates River, Saddam Hussein built a new palace ..."

Johnny: What indicates to you that it is probable
that the only reason that certain cities have not
been rebuilt is because God prevented them from being rebuilt? Is it reasonably possible that some cities in the world have not been rebuilt for
reasons that have nothing to do with God's
involvement?

Lee: Certainly, and you may rebuild those cities as well! Though that doesn't matter so much. The pertinent point here is not how probable rebuilding a city is! Anyone may make this attempt at any time, that is the point, and Muslims would be quite eager to rebuild
Babylon, and disprove Scripture. So would atheists. End of quotes.

Regarding “I tell people *they* may rebuild Babylon. I pick it because it is actually falsifiable, by the very people who say there is no really fulfilled prophecy,� there is no evidence that any Old Testament Babylonians knew about the prophecy. That alone refutes all of Lee’s arguments. Regarding enemies of Christianity living today who are aware of the prophecy, Iraqis being the most pertinent example, they have many arguments at their disposal for discrediting Christianity (in their opinions) that preclude the need of trying to rebuild an ancient city of four square miles in a location where they don’t want to rebuild it. It is reasonable to conclude that the location of ancient Baghdad was deemed to be a better location for ordinary reasons that were sensible to the builders.

Lee has his work cut out for him. Following are some excerpts from a lengthy article at a Christian web site at http://askelm.com/prophecy/p021001.htm:

“The rebirth of Babylon is destined to play one of the leading roles in the end-time fulfillment of Bible prophecy. Its influence will be worldwide—affecting all people. Yet the majority of people today have little conception of the prophecies concerning the rebuilding of Babylon. The Bible not only shows that a literal Babylon will exist at the end of our age in majestic glory, but it will be resurrected in the same location as its ancient predecessor in the Middle East.

“The prophecies about the destruction of a literal Babylon on the River Euphrates mentioned in the Bible have never yet occurred. People who say they have, are avoiding all the truth of history. ANCIENT BABYLON WAS IN NO WAY DESTROYED AS THE SCRIPTURES PROPHESY THAT BABYLON MUST, emphasis mine). However, the prophecies of God have not failed. They refer to a Babylon destined to exist at the end of the age. This is shown by Jeremiah the prophet.�

In his ‘Believer’s Bible Commentary,’ William MacDonald says the following:

“There are certain difficulties connected with the prophecies of the destruction of Babylon, both the city and the country (Isa. 12:6-22) 14:4-23; 21:2-9; 47:1-11; Jer. 25:12-14; 50;51). For example, the capture of the city by the Medes (Isa. 13:17) in 539 B.C. did not result in a destruction similar to that of Sodom and Gomorrah (Isa. 13:19); did not leave the city uninhabited forever (Isa. 13:20-22); was not accomplished by a nation from the north – Medo-Persia was to the east – (Jer. 50:3); did not result in Israel or more than a remnant of Judah seeking the Lord or returning to Zion (Jer. 50:4, 5); and did not involve the breaking of the walls and burning of the gates (Jer. 51:58).

“When we come to a difficulty like this, how do we handle it? First of all, we reaffirm our utter confidence in the Word of God. If there is any difficulty, it is because of our lack of knowledge. But we remember that the prophets often had a way of merging the immediate future and the distant future without always indicating any time signals. In other words, a prophecy could have a local, partial fulfillment and a remote, complete fulfillment. That is the case with Babylon. Not all the prophecies have been fulfilled. Some are still future.�

Well I must say, readers, the two Christian references that I cited, and I am certain that there are more like them, adequately refute Lee Merrill much better than I ever could.

Sauron

Oh, I'm disappointed. I wanted lee to address the questions I was raising in the other thread. Now it appears that he's going to ignore me.

Johnny, you won't mind too much if I toss you a tidbit or two, every so often? :devil3:

lee_merrill

Johnny!

Hi, by the way. But you invite me to post my opening arguments, and then you post my opening arguments. This you must not do, in a debate...

Regards,
Lee <- Wondering if he can now post Johnny's rebuttal!

P.S. I will have to get back to this tomorrow...

Johnny Skeptic

Message to Sauron: I don't mind at all if Lee Merrill comments on your arguments before he comments on mine. If Lee reads this message, I request that he comment on your arguments first.

The only reason that I didn't wait for Lee to present his opening arguments is that I thought he was busy and wouldn't mind if I presented my arguments first, which were actually both of our arguments from several e-mails. If Lee wants to temporarily disregard my previous post and start all over again with him making the opening arguments, that is fine with me. I am patient and flexible. I don't want to ruffle anybody's feathers.

lee_merrill

Hi everyone,

Here is a (bit hurried) summary of points about Babylon, first the main verses:

Isaiah 13:19-22 Babylon, the jewel of kingdoms, the glory of the Babylonians' pride, will be overthrown by God like Sodom and Gomorrah. She will never be inhabited or lived in through all generations; no Arab will pitch his tent there, no shepherd will rest his flocks there. But desert creatures will lie there, jackals will fill her houses; there the owls will dwell, and there the wild goats will leap about. Hyenas will howl in her strongholds, jackals in her luxurious palaces. Her time is at hand, and her days will not be prolonged.

Jeremiah 25:12 "But when the seventy years are fulfilled, I will punish the king of Babylon and his nation, the land of the Babylonians, for their guilt," declares the Lord, "and will make it desolate forever."

Jeremiah 51:25-26 "I am against you, O destroying mountain, you who destroy the whole earth," declares the Lord. "I will stretch out my hand against you, roll you off the cliffs, and make you a burned-out mountain. No rock will be taken from you for a cornerstone, nor any stone for a foundation, for you will be desolate forever," declares the Lord.

Now by Babylon, I mean the city, which seems to be implied by "the jewel of the kingdoms," and the parallel reference to Sodom and Gomorrah. As far as not being reinhabited, I would hold that this refers to people making a home there, for say five, or ten, or fifteen years, and as far as not being rebuilt, I would take "burned-out mountain" and "desolate forever" as meaning that the parts people thought of as characteristic of the city, the walls the chariots could drive on, the hanging gardens, and the palaces, would not return, forever.

As far as fulfillment, we may note that Alexander the Great tried to make Babylon his capital, and even went as far as making it his harbor, and died while in the middle of his restoration project. We may also remember the recent attempt by Saddam Hussein, who suddenly found himself otherwise occupied, and now the bricks from his palace are being sold, a dollar apiece, to Marines, as souvenirs.

And even more importantly, anyone may try and rebuild this city if they wish! This would be quite a prize for those who believe the Bible is not dependable, such as, for instance, Muslims. They might take an interest in this project, in a different way than Saddam did...

It seems we are also underway already, so I will try and answer points made in another thread here, rather than have a discussion about this in two places.

Regards,
Lee