Freethought & Rationalism Archive

arnoldo · 12-11-2008, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Lots of similar articals and pictures available, need one that clearly displays the inscriptions and the words "Lord Jesus Christ" and "The God Jesus Christ"

The following has the text of the inscription but no picture. . .

Quote:

PROSHNIKEN
AKEPTOUS-
H FILOQEOS
THN TRAPE
ZAN QW IU CW
MNHMOSUNON

http://home.planet.nl/~slofs018/Megiddo.htm

Joan of Bark · 12-11-2008, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Here's another intersting image of Jesus. . .

http://archaeology.huji.ac.il/Bronze/jesuscoins.htm

How can this be an image of Jesus when there are no descriptions of his appearance anywhere? Only an image of Jesus from the first century A.D. would have any credibility.

Sheshbazzar · 12-11-2008, 06:13 PM

Upon investigation it will be found that these "Jesus Coins" and the other articles found at that archaeological site actually date to the 10th and 11th centuries thus could not have been deposited there before that time.

Sheshbazzar · 12-11-2008, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

The following has the text of the inscription but no picture. . .

Thank you arnoldo, that link led me the exact information that I was seeking, even without any actual photo or sketch.
I'm sure that actual legible pictures will eventually turn up.

mountainman · 12-11-2008, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

This should be of interest to mountainman - another piece of evidence for the existence of Christianity before Constantine that he needs to explain away. But there is no evidence here of Jesus - only 3rd century people who worshipped a Lord Jesus Christ and liked the symbolism of fish.

Dear Toto,

It looks like the recent Megiddo archaeological site inside the prison. (Perhaps they would have sent Oded Golan here if he was found guilty? ) The consensus of opinion here is still split between fourth century and the earlier "prenicene epoch". Some links include:

1) WIKI - Tel Megiddo and church
2) Christian Mosaics - an article with pics,

Best wishes,

Pete

Toto · 12-11-2008, 07:03 PM

The inscriptions

Interesting - Lord Jesus Christ is in nomina sacra - "QW IU CW"

The memorial to the four women includes

MNHMONEUSATE
PRIMILLHS KAI KURI
AKHS KAI DWROQEAS
ETI DE KAI CRHSTH[S]

Remember Primilles, Kyriakes and Dorotheas, three Roman or Christian-sounding names, and also "Chrestes"

Quote:

... the name "Chrestes" might possibly also be 'interpreted' to refer – in this period or later -- to the name Christ. From the earliest days there has been confusion about the name Christos ("Christ"), which was frequently rendered as Khrêstos ("the kind/good one (m)"). This has to do with two factors. First iotacism, a kind of Great Vowel Shift in Ancient Greek . In later antiquity the letters <ei> en <h> sound like <i> (°Grammond 250, °Kaufmann 33). The second factor is the obvious fact that ordinary Greek people didn't understand the meaning or symbolism of the Jewish expression "The Anointed One" (the Greek translation of Hebrew "Messiah"). See °CE sv Christ (names), °Sophocles sv Khristos 2b and epigraphical examples like "ancilla Cresti" ('servant of Christ'), °AE 1912-0009.) ... The name Khrêstê was very frequent, cf. Solin 931, Bechtel 512.

Sheshbazzar · 12-11-2008, 08:58 PM

I can hardly wait till they find this same nomina sacra in a 1st or 2nd Century B.C. site.

mountainman · 12-11-2008, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The inscriptions

Interesting - Lord Jesus Christ is in nomina sacra - "QW IU CW"

Dear Toto,

From the footnotes on that page ..

Quote:

[10] Of course, there is a lot of discussion as well about the expression (the) god Jesus Christ. Mr. Tepper dates the site back to the late 3rd and early 4th century, partly as a consequence of the 'language use' of the inscriptions. It seems rather likely that this expression is one of the factors meant. It is a well-known fact that the Early Christians had widely different views about the 'nature' of Jesus and that many ancient sources did not differentiate clearly between the concepts "Jesus" and "God" (Ferguson sv God, Naerebout & Singor 409-419). The Councils of Nicea (325) and Chalcedon (451) were meant to permanently settle the issue: Jesus is one person with two natures (human and divine). But even after these councils, the orthodox view was never accepted generally. The expression "the God Jesus Christ" may very well be an indication that we are dealing with pre-Nicean Christians, but this is not a proof beyond any doubt.

On the contrary, the expression "the God Jesus Christ" may very well be an indication that we are dealing with post-Nicean Christians. The official Roman state monotheistic religion authoritatively proscribed that a brand new god, who was called, umm. what was his name again, oh yeas .. "Jesus the Christ" ... was to be considered supreme in the Roman empire, by order of the Pontifex Maximus Constantinus.

It was official. A canon had been drawn up and edited by Eusebius, and the first bibles in codex form were on the production line. Business was looking up for "the good chrestos" religion. However exectly the opposite was the case for every-one else in the empire. No longer was it lawful to speak of, or to worship "the god Asclepius" or "the god Apollo" or "the god Diana" or "the god Zeus", etc, etc. The temples of the old gods were overthrown, the gates were shut fast. Services were cancelled. The Emperors were now "Christian Emperors" -- inherited from Constantine. New basilicas for the new god continued to be constructed over the foundations of the ancient Hellenistic temples and shrines, and in important locations mentioned in the "Holy Land" of Eusebius.

Best wishes,

Pete

Sheshbazzar · 12-12-2008, 12:27 AM

For the time, I'll hold to my hunch that these so called nomina sacra and fish imagery existed from pre-christian times, and were simply taken over, adapted, and incorporated right along with many of the mythical events and elements drawn from yet unknown sources.
No, I'm in no position to posit that this particular site is really a non-christian site, I'm totally content to let the archaeological experts settle the matter of its date.

But playing the hunch,
I can hardly wait till this same nomina sacra does turn up in a 1st or 2nd Century B.C. site, as the symbology seems to have first arisen, and appears to be a product of the Hellenic "mystery religion" cult environment.
Dosen't look like -anything- that Torah observant and devout Messianic Jews would want anything to do with, and even Paul, if he was anything even near to what in the NT he describes himself as, "a Pharisee of the strictest sect", learned in the Law and traditions of the Jews, would have willingly promoted such iconography, or even touched it with a ten foot pole.

Lots of archaeological sites yet remain to reveal their secrets, I can wait, the world is not going to end any time soon, and if it does,
by meteor or some such, religion won't make any difference anyway.

Toto · 12-12-2008, 12:50 AM

This note states:

Quote:

Even more surprising are the words "the God Jesus Christ" which, to the best of our knowledge, appear nowhere else in Christian literature where the reference is always to "Jesus, son of God" and which is certainly one of the earliest references to Jesus on a mosaic.

Christian writings do refer to Jesus as Kyrios, or Lord, which can mean god, but not as Theos.

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12-11-2008, 06:13 PM	#23
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Upon investigation it will be found that these "Jesus Coins" and the other articles found at that archaeological site actually date to the 10th and 11th centuries thus could not have been deposited there before that time.

12-11-2008, 08:58 PM	#27
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	I can hardly wait till they find this same nomina sacra in a 1st or 2nd Century B.C. site.

12-12-2008, 12:27 AM	#29
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	For the time, I'll hold to my hunch that these so called nomina sacra and fish imagery existed from pre-christian times, and were simply taken over, adapted, and incorporated right along with many of the mythical events and elements drawn from yet unknown sources. No, I'm in no position to posit that this particular site is really a non-christian site, I'm totally content to let the archaeological experts settle the matter of its date. But playing the hunch, I can hardly wait till this same nomina sacra does turn up in a 1st or 2nd Century B.C. site, as the symbology seems to have first arisen, and appears to be a product of the Hellenic "mystery religion" cult environment. Dosen't look like -anything- that Torah observant and devout Messianic Jews would want anything to do with, and even Paul, if he was anything even near to what in the NT he describes himself as, "a Pharisee of the strictest sect", learned in the Law and traditions of the Jews, would have willingly promoted such iconography, or even touched it with a ten foot pole. Lots of archaeological sites yet remain to reveal their secrets, I can wait, the world is not going to end any time soon, and if it does, by meteor or some such, religion won't make any difference anyway.

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