Ted Hoffman

Peter K: I accept Paul as a historical person and letter-writer. He mentions Kephas, so that is historical personage as well.

TH: Huh? Kephas is a nickname, not a name. Who was Kephas? - especially considering Petros, as you state, may be spurious.

Peter K: The closest I can think of is Darrel Doughty..
TH: You challenged his arguments and I notified him. HAs anyone here managed to correspond privately with Doughty? Price and Doherty respond to responses to their work...

Yuri: I don't have an argument....OTOH I have questions.
TH: So, have they been answered? You just wanted to know the earliest Christian martyr?

Peter Kirby

Kephas is the name used in the letters of Paul.

best wishes,
Peter Kirby

NOGO

Yuri,

I am willing to accept all the martyrs as historical.
The description of Jesus' death, his trial, the absurd questioning, and also Peter's denial are all elements which I believe made their way into the Gospels because the persecutions had already started.

Here is the ultimate example. Jesus' followers abandon him in his hour of need. This whole story is designed as a lesson for future martyrs.

Here is a community which demanded everything from its members including martyrdom. One must also remember that they expected the end of the world to be around the corner.

There were Christians martyrs before the HJ.

Obviously you thing that there is something wrong with this picture but wont say what it is. You are playing a game.

NOGO

This may be in fact Yuri's point.

Jesus is the first Christian martyr - example to the others.

Clivedurdle

I do not know the details but I thought it was undestood a misinterpretation of two very similar words led to the belief Nero persecuted xians. I thought he was persecuting gerry builders - their poor building caused the fire.

Peter Kirby

Source?

best wishes,
Peter Kirby

Toto

The Neronian persecution was discussed here

and Christianos or Chrestianos in Tacitus.

and Tacitus and Co.

I do recall someone claiming that Nero actually persecuted the builders who put up shoddy buildings, but I haven't found that thread.

nattybumpo

The number of actual real Christian martyrs who died because of their religion was relatively miniscule. As others have indicated, frequently they were considered troublesome because they kept SEEKING martyrdom. So, the number of martyrs Christianity has contributed to human history pales in comparison to the number of humans it has martyred in its vicious lust for temporal power. Part of the reason for the popularity of the Martyr Cults is that the mythology covers up the atrocities that have been committed by Christians. It wouldn't surprise me, in fact, if all the stories of Christian martyrs were of human martyred by Christians.

John A. Broussard

I have the feeling that there's a new book out on Nero. Supposedly he wasn't the sadistic klutz he was painted out to be by Tacitus et al. If anyone's heard about it, let me know.

Clivedurdle

It might be related to Tom Holland Rubicon.

That thread died but I think it deserves further discussion!