rhutchin

That seems to be the case. God has provided just enough evidence to save those whom He desires to save.

Why do you assume that it is not?

It is a subjective evaluation by each of us based on a host of factors, none of which will prove our position, is it not?

Johnny Skeptic

Since as an agnostic I do not claim that I know how the universe got here, and you do, it is up to you to prove your position, not for me to disprove it. You seek to change the widely accepted burden of proof into the burden of disproof. That won't work. He would asserts first must defend first. I am not aware of any good reasons for anyone to assume that all of the Bible is the word of God. Are you? I am willing to have a Mexican standoff. Are you?

rhutchin

Johnny Skeptic

I agree. People like you who do not have principles and morals want to be with God.

It is not a question of wanting. I am not able to accept a God who does the detestable things that God does and allows.

Are you saying that if you believed that God told lies, you would be able to choose to love him and totally commit your life to him? If you say yes, I will not believe you. At the EofG Forum, in the thread that you started that is titled 'Loving God no matter what', you basically said that you would not be able to love a God who did things that you oppose.

Please give us your definition of the word "atrocity" and a list of ten things that you believe are atrocities. A web definition for the word "atrocity" is as follows:

"the quality of being shockingly cruel and inhumane"

The Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary defines the word "atrocious" as follows:

1: extremely wicked, brutal, or cruel : BARBARIC

2: APPALLING, HORRIFYING <the atrocious weapons of modern war>

3 a : utterly revolting : ABOMINABLE <atrocious working conditions> b : of very poor quality <atrocious handwriting>

Johnny: Those definitions describe God pretty well. Let's see how much of the following proof you will reply to:

1 - God makes people blind, deaf, and dumb, reference Exodus 4:11.

2 - God punishes people for sins that their ancestors committed, reference Exodus 20:5.

3 - God ordered the death penalty for a Jew who killed a Jew, but not for a Jew who killed a slave. The Bible does not clearly oppose slavery, but it ought to. The Bible does not clearly oppose slavery. That is an example of gross negligence. We have laws against negligence. I assume that you approve of them.

4 - God kills people with hurricanes, including some of his most devout and faithful followers, and their children, with no possible benefits for God or anyone else.

5 - God kills innocent animals.

6 - God allowed one million people to die of starvation in the Irish Potato Famine, most of whom were Christians, in spite of the fact that he told Christians via James that if a man refuses to give food to a hungry person, he is vain, and his faith is dead. This means that God is vain, and he is hypocrite. If feeding hungry people is a worthy goal, it is a worthy goal for humans and for Goid.

7 - You have said that people who need help should ask God to help them, but surely you must know that God has always refused to help amputees, at least at far as we know.

8 - God frequently distributes tangible needs to those who are not in greatest need, including to some evil people who never become Christians, and frequently withholds tangible needs from people who are in greatest need, including some of his most devout followers. What does that say about God's character? The simple truth is that no man can ask God for any tangible benefit and be assured that he will receive it. This suggests to many people that God does not exist, and who can blame them? It appears to me that all tangible benefits are distritubted entirely at random according the laws of physics. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

9 - Ever since Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, somehow, by genetics or by some other means, God has ensured that everyone must commit sins at least some of the time by passing a sinful nature on to succeeding generations. The Bible says that God is merciful, but that is a lie. God endorses unmerciful eternal punishment without parole. If mercy is anything, it is forgoing eternal punishment without parole even when justice, in this case, God's justice, requires it.

10 - God withholds evidence from some people that they would accept if they were aware of it. That is immoral and unfair. In the U.S., there are penalties for unknowingly breaking laws, but there aren't any laws that punish a man with life in prison or death if he is not aware of the law.

11 - If God were mentally incompetent, how would he act any differently than he acts now? The correct answer is, not any differently at all. Even Attila the Hun did not kill his own followers. No mentally competent being helps AND kills people, and allows them to starve to death. You would never accept any being other than God who committed the numerous atrocities that God has committed against mankind.

First of all, if God is not moral, loving, caring, and compassionate, which appears to be the case, and since the Bible indicates that God is moral, loving, caring, and compassionate, he probably does not exist. Second of all, as far as people who have principles and morals are concerned, it doesn't matter what God will do because there is nothing that they are able to do about it unless they abandon their principles and morals. That would be an impossible task for those people.

Johnny Skeptic

Message to rhutchin: Since most skeptics want to know the risks that are involved regarding the existence of harmful microorganisms, if there are risks involved regarding rejecting the Bible, most skeptics want to know about it, in fact, much more so than they want to know about the risks that are involved regarding the existence of harmful microorganisms. So, you are not able to come with credible evidence that skeptics do not want to know whether or not there are risks that are involved regarding rejecting the Bible.

If God exists, he has deliberately withholds additional evidence regarding his existence, and the existence of hell, in which case people who have principles and morals have no choice but to reject him. Any loving God would go to much greater lengths to prove that he exists than God has gone to. If you love people, you want to all that you can to keep them from going to hell. If I refuse to tell people about God, I do so out of ignorance. If God refuses to provide additional evidence to some people who would accept it if they were aware of it, he does so out of intent. There is a big difference between ignorance and intent. Such detestable behavior on God's part most certainly does not benefit him or anyone else in any way. People who have morals and principles want to worship a God who is looking out for their best interests, not his own best interests.

rhutchin

It's not my position (i.e., I did not originate it). It is the position described in the Bible. I go along with it. That position can be either true or false. If the position is true, then you would have to disprove it in order to reject it. If the position is false, who cares?

Burden of proof, in this instance, rests with the person who has something to lose. The person who accepts the Bible considers that which he has to lose. The person who rejects the Bible considers that which he has to lose.

If I cannot prove the Bible is true, that does not make it false. If you cannot prove the Bible is false, then you have no basis to reject it. So, there is no reason to believe that the Bible is false.

djrafikie

Rhutchin. Answer my questions. I demand it in light of you being so rude in your previous reply. (Yes, I consider unfounded assertions regarding my life to be "rude").

Johnny Skeptic

No it doesn't. If a person has principles and morals, risk has nothing to with it. I prove this in my post #604.

Berggy

1. I would argue that there are specific instances, where it servers specifically their purpose, that they would made someone mute, just like in the case of Ezekiel. However, I would also say that its only for those specific cases as I have not seen a case mentioned within the Bible to where God is mentioned doing it needlessly and without a good reason.

2. Yes, he does, to the succesive generations of those that "hate" him, which means that those generations are continually doing things that are transgressing their laws because those people "hate" him. There is a reason for it.

3. http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=189054 - post number 17

4. If you wish to put the blame on the Gods of the Bible, then I would like for you to show me a case where he specifically caused a calamity and "if" he did, where it was "needless".

5. Animals are animals, they are not human beings and they were never killed without a good reason. Aside from the sacrificial system, which was effectively abolished with the sacrifice of Christ, there is no more animal sacrificing, which was only to show what was needed for the remission of sins.

Even more so, if it hurts you to think about animals being sacrificed, then you would understand the remorse behind the act of sacrificing an innonent to pay the price for your transgressions.

6. Allowing something to happen and "causing" something to happen are two completely different things. God allowed a murderer to kill another person and when they were finally caught, they were executed. God allows people to choose what they wish to do and they have to live in this life regardless of what happens. This happened back in the ancient times with the ancient Israelites and it happens today.

Even more so, your quotation of James is not entirely applicable to the situation. The context as stated in James 2:14-17 in which a brother or sister was naked and desistue of everyday food and you say that your going to pray to God for them, yet you dont take some of your clothes and some of your food and give it to them, your faith is dead, because you must show your faith by your actions, which in turn mean your works.

However, the context is "brother or sister", it doesnt mean a bum off the street who preys on people's sympathy or anything else in such a manner or way.

7. Well, perhaps not in your personal life, or someone elses, but just because you ask God for help does mean they are going to miracuously cure you of all your problems. If you decided to go out with your friends and dance around in the road and and a care comes by and runs you over and you lose your leg because of it, why should God help you? You made the descision of getting into the road, you are the one who put yourself into a situation were you could get hurt and you got hurt, so you must live with your descision, why should God be labeled as being evil or bad for when they dont help you when "you" caused your situation?

8. Tangible benefits? Could you be more specific?

9. God does not cause people to sin as stated by James 1:13-15. Even more so, the penalty for sin is "death", period and all lexicons of the Hebrew and Greek will tell you that it simply means to be dead, deceased, no more alive. Which means that even though the NT speaks of a Lake of Fire and people being thrown into it, based in context of what it means to die as stated in the scriptures, they will eventually burn to death and that will be that.

The Roman Catholics and/or the church denominations are what teach a form of either purgatory or an ever burning pit to where you will burn forever and ever, all-the-while being alive while it happens. Its not in the Bible.

10. Evidence? God doesnt withhold any evidence. All the evidence is stated within the Bible. You study it and see if what it states is reflected in the outside world and that is all the assurance that you need as "faith" is the "substance" of things hoped for, the "evidence" of things not seen as stated by Hebrews 11:1 - its never blind.

11. Those things that are spoken of in the Bible happened for a reason and its people outside of the Bible, with their own moral code, who would even begin to think that anything that is spoken of within it is evil or immoral.

Johnny Skeptic

That is false. God needlessly killed lots of animals with Hurricane Katrina.

Sure he does. Millions of people are not reasonably certain that there is at least one being in the universe who is able to immediately create planets. If God exists, he could easily show up and create a new planet, in which case surely some people would become Christians who were not previously convinced. If Jesus returned to earth and healed all of the sick people in the world, which Christians doctors are trying to do because they know that good health is a wonderful thing, surely out of gratitude some people would become Christians who were not previously convinced.

Jefferson Davis was the president of the Southern Confederacy during the U.S. Civil War. He was a Christian. He believed, like millions of other Christians did, that the Bible endorses slavery. Even if the Bible does not endorse slavery, Davis believed that it does endorse slavery. If God exists, he could have showed up in person and told Davis that slavery is wrong. Why didn't God do that?

Why do you believe that God killed unborn babies and young babies at Sodom and Gomorrah?

Why do you believe that God always discrimates against amputees who need new limbs, at least as far as we know?

Is it your position that Hurricane Katrina did more good than bad? Is it your position that hurricanes create themselves and go wherever they want to go?

Do you believe that it was right for God to refuse to give food to the one million people who died of starvation in the Irish Potato Famine, most of whom were Christians?

Would you tell someone to feed hungry people and refuse to feed them yourself? God does.

Why doesn't God protect people from murderers, rapists, and terrorists?

What evidence do you have that today, all tangible benefits are not distributed entirely at random according to the laws of physics?

Loving human parents are directly involved with the upbringing of their children, tangibly, in person. No loving God should do any less. Copies of copies of ancient texts are not nearly enough to give humans the help and supervision that they need.

Regarding homosexuality, what evidence do you have that the Bible writers were speaking for God and not for themselves?

When people sometimes give up religion because God refuses to feed hungry people, and heal people who desperately need to be healed, how does that benefit God or anyone else? Trust must be earned, not merely declared in copies of copies of ancient texts. The writings of human proxies can fairly be questioned. Humans can lie, they can be guilty of innocent but inaccurate revelations, and they can be misinterpreted. If God exists, there not any comparable substitutes for his tangible presence. In the KJV, John 3:2 says "The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him." If that claim is true, we need evidence like that much more today that people did back then. If you claim that today, the Holy Sprit is evidence, I will tell you than in the NIV, Acts 14:3 says that even AFTER the Holy Spirit came to the church, the disciples still performed miracles and "confirmed the message of his grace". I will also tell you that the presence of the Holy Spirit and Jesus would be much more effective than just the Holy Spirit. Spiritual evidence is subjective. The followers of many religions claim that they receive spiritual benefits from their Gods. If the God of the Bible exists, it is a question of how much he wants to help ensure that as many people as possible go to heaven, and as few people as possible go to hell, and how much he wants to help us with our tangible needs. If God is not able to do anything more than he has done to help ensure that as many people as possible go to heaven, and as few people as possible go to hell, he isn't God. That is because by definition, a God is able to accomplish anything that he wishes to accomplish. God could do much more than he has done to convince people to become Christians without interfering with their free will.

The Bible says that God is merciful. That is a lie. God endorses unmerciful eternal punishment without parole. If mercy is anything, it is forgoing eternal punishment without parole even when justice, in this case, God's justice, requires it.

Consider the following Scriptures from the KJV:

Revelation 14

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 9

1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Mark 14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

Johnny: There is no way that a loving God could have inspired the writing of vicious, hateful Scriptures like those.