Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vivo · 10-12-2006, 01:40 PM

"And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
-Leviticus 20:13

Like Galileo before it. Like slavery before it. Like woman's rights before it; the narrow-minded and cowardly's antiquated ways are being confronted, and they are being beaten.

The current conflict between the natural progession of Mankind and the ignorance of the cowardly is that, of course, for the rights of Homosexuals. In many of the civilized nations, this conflict is already resolved, but there are yet many who harbor strongly in tradition and religion, which stunts their growth as more free-thinking and accepting peoples.

It is sad for me, to see the hate and fear of those indoctrinated in such ignorances, when I think for my brother. My brother is homosexual, and because of these prejudices, his life has been more difficult than he could ever have deserved.

We are at the Fulcrum, my friends. Our society hinges on the change that it requires, as it has a hundred times, and it is then - as has always been - when is most tumultuous. Those who are afraid of the future will fight it, will fight the change, but we shall win, as we always shall.

I guess, my friends, the ultimate purpose of this wandering post of mine is to proclaim my belief that we should all find solace knowing that, although there is resistance, good always perserveres. All our fellow people who are homosexual, who suffer gracefully through this time, shall see their freedoms as everyone else's.

By the way, first post. :grin:

Toto · 10-12-2006, 02:17 PM

Welcome to the forums, Vivo.

If you search this forum for "Homosexuality" you will find some prior posts which propose a different interpretation of that Biblical passage.

Please feel free to drop by theLounge and introduce yourself.

rhutchin · 10-13-2006, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vivo

"And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
-Leviticus 20:13

Like Galileo before it. Like slavery before it. Like woman's rights before it; the narrow-minded and cowardly's antiquated ways are being confronted, and they are being beaten.

The current conflict between the natural progession of Mankind and the ignorance of the cowardly is that, of course, for the rights of Homosexuals. In many of the civilized nations, this conflict is already resolved, but there are yet many who harbor strongly in tradition and religion, which stunts their growth as more free-thinking and accepting peoples.

It is sad for me, to see the hate and fear of those indoctrinated in such ignorances, when I think for my brother. My brother is homosexual, and because of these prejudices, his life has been more difficult than he could ever have deserved.

We are at the Fulcrum, my friends. Our society hinges on the change that it requires, as it has a hundred times, and it is then - as has always been - when is most tumultuous. Those who are afraid of the future will fight it, will fight the change, but we shall win, as we always shall.

I guess, my friends, the ultimate purpose of this wandering post of mine is to proclaim my belief that we should all find solace knowing that, although there is resistance, good always perserveres. All our fellow people who are homosexual, who suffer gracefully through this time, shall see their freedoms as everyone else's.

By the way, first post. :grin:

The basic position taken by the Bible on all sexual relationships is that any sex other than that which occurs between a man and a women in marriage is wrong. Consequently, both heterosexual and homosexual activities that do not occur within the marriage of a man and a woman are wrong.

As with anything else that the Bible says is wrong (lying, stealing, murder, etc.), God gives people the freedom to do those things with the understanding that those who do such things will not be allowed into heaven.

While a person is free to do wrong things, society does not have to endorse those actions.

aperfectstranger · 10-13-2006, 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

The basic position taken by the Bible on all sexual relationships is that any sex other than that which occurs between a man and a women in marriage is wrong. Consequently, both heterosexual and homosexual activities that do not occur within the marriage of a man and a woman are wrong.

As with anything else that the Bible says is wrong (lying, stealing, murder, etc.), God gives people the freedom to do those things with the understanding that those who do such things will not be allowed into heaven.

While a person is free to do wrong things, society does not have to endorse those actions.

You obviously don't read the bible much, or you read only what you want. Lying, stealing and murder isn't always condemned in the word, sometimes it is even commanded. Sex according to the bible doesn't always have to be sanctioned by marriage as it is understood today. Of course these idiotic rules favour men.

Johnny Skeptic · 10-13-2006, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

The basic position taken by the Bible on all sexual relationships is that any sex other than that which occurs between a man and a women in marriage is wrong. Consequently, both heterosexual and homosexual activities that do not occur within the marriage of a man and a woman are wrong.

As with anything else that the Bible says is wrong (lying, stealing, murder, etc.), God gives people the freedom to do those things with the understanding that those who do such things will not be allowed into heaven.

While a person is free to do wrong things, society does not have to endorse those actions.

God is also free to do wrong things, which he does, and society does not have to endorse those actions. God says that killing people is wrong, but he routinely kills even some of his most devout and faithful followers, and babies and innocent animals. God is a hypocrite, and a liar. He says that Christians can ask for wisdom and receive it, but the Christian church has been in disarray for many centuries.

God has made certain that everyone is born with a sinful nature, thereby ensuring that everyone MUST commit some sins. In addition, God punishes people for sins that their grandparents committed, reference Exodus
20:5. God make people blind, deaf, and dumb, reference Exodus 4:11. Even in the New Testament, God killed Ananias and Saphira over money. Who knows how many more people he murdered?

As usual, you do not have any idea whatsoever what you are talking about. You tried debating homosexuality from a secular viewpoint last year at the GRD, and you left in defeat. As I recall, after I had demolished all of your arguments, you basically said we need to conduct more research. Well, if we need to conduct more research, why didn't you keep your opinions to yourself pending further research. You tried to link pedophilia with homosexuality by mentioning the gay extremist organization NAMBLA (North America Man Boy Love Assosiation), which DOES NOT represent the views of anywhere near 10% of homosexuals. Typical of fundamentalist Christians, you are not content to just say "the Bible says so", so you attempted to use secular evidence in order to show that the Bible is practical. Get this, wherever the Bible is practical, atheists and agnostics AGREE with it, such as the Bible's opposition to murder (except of course in God's case) and theft. Jesus opposed divorce except in cases of adultery, but it is well-known that in some cases, divorce IS practical, and in many cases, quite necessary because a spouse sometimes becomes violent and impossible to live with. Yes, separation is possible, but a spouse that separates from a violent spouse should most certainly not be required to refrain from having sex for the rest of his or her life if the other spouse has not committed adultery.

Do you by any chance have any evidence that the Bible writers who supposedly opposed homosexuality spoke for God and not for themselves? No?, I didn't think so. I challenge you to start a new thread on inerrancy. Please be advised that the Bible declaring itself to be inerrant is by no means evidence that it is inerrant.

davidbach · 10-13-2006, 07:50 AM

Good post, Good question, Vivo.

All sorts of things are condemned in the bible. Homosexuality probably less so than eating pork!

We need to make some careful distinctions here. The bible is not a church handbook, nor is it (particularly the old testament) a guide to Christianity. Perhaps the most powerful feature of the bible is that it has a certain mystery. Only an overall study, in context, is useful. So there is a fair latitude for interpretation. That is broadly the position of the mainline churches, though, from time to time even the most traditional chursh can be seized by a bout of mania over some point, for example the ordination of women.

There are fringe Christians who typically wave bibles and quote individual verses with an agressive stance such as "Which part of "SHALT NOT" don't you understand?". Anyone who thinks that Mount Everest was once submerged by a flood or that the universe was constructed in seven days is hardly a reliable source on morality and acceptable customs and practices.

As a side note, homosexuality was rife in Roman times. Some of the critical stance in the new testament (written mostly in that period) may well have been directed at Roman hegemony rather than any particular practice. Much as we might say today "What do they know, they spend all day drinking champagne on their yachts".

David.

rhutchin · 10-13-2006, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

rhutchin
The basic position taken by the Bible on all sexual relationships is that any sex other than that which occurs between a man and a women in marriage is wrong. Consequently, both heterosexual and homosexual activities that do not occur within the marriage of a man and a woman are wrong.

As with anything else that the Bible says is wrong (lying, stealing, murder, etc.), God gives people the freedom to do those things with the understanding that those who do such things will not be allowed into heaven.

While a person is free to do wrong things, society does not have to endorse those actions.

Johnny Skeptic
As usual, you do not have any idea whatsoever what you are talking about. You tried debating homosexuality from a secular viewpoint last year at the GRD, and you left in defeat.

From my memory, it seems that we established that the only basis for saying that homosexuality is wrong is that which the Bible says. If establishing that which the Bible says is a defeat, then I guess that makes defeat a victory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

As I recall, after I had demolished all of your arguments, you basically said we need to conduct more research. Well, if we need to conduct more research, why didn't you keep your opinions to yourself pending further research...

I thought the research was necessary to substantiate your claims.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Do you by any chance have any evidence that the Bible writers who supposedly opposed homosexuality spoke for God and not for themselves? No?, I didn't think so. I challenge you to start a new thread on inerrancy. Please be advised that the Bible declaring itself to be inerrant is by no means evidence that it is inerrant.

It is evidence; it is not proof.

rhutchin · 10-13-2006, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OliviaOh

You obviously don't read the bible much, or you read only what you want. Lying, stealing and murder isn't always condemned in the word, sometimes it is even commanded. Sex according to the bible doesn't always have to be sanctioned by marriage as it is understood today. Of course these idiotic rules favour men.

Sounds like OliviaOh is a woman and unmarried.

aperfectstranger · 10-13-2006, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Sounds like OliviaOh is a woman and unmarried.

Wrong again, (as usual) I'm happily married to a great, fabulous, amazing man who played a large role in freeing me from the prison of Christianity. The bible must be one of the most misogynistic documents I have ever read.

Toto · 10-13-2006, 09:43 AM

Mod note: please do not ascribe motives to other posters, and do not make assumptions about their personal lives.

There are quite a few men who have noticed the sexual bias in Biblical commandments.

10-12-2006, 01:40 PM	#1
Vivo Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Saskatchewan, Canada Posts: 379	Christianity and Homosexuality "And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." -Leviticus 20:13 Like Galileo before it. Like slavery before it. Like woman's rights before it; the narrow-minded and cowardly's antiquated ways are being confronted, and they are being beaten. The current conflict between the natural progession of Mankind and the ignorance of the cowardly is that, of course, for the rights of Homosexuals. In many of the civilized nations, this conflict is already resolved, but there are yet many who harbor strongly in tradition and religion, which stunts their growth as more free-thinking and accepting peoples. It is sad for me, to see the hate and fear of those indoctrinated in such ignorances, when I think for my brother. My brother is homosexual, and because of these prejudices, his life has been more difficult than he could ever have deserved. We are at the Fulcrum, my friends. Our society hinges on the change that it requires, as it has a hundred times, and it is then - as has always been - when is most tumultuous. Those who are afraid of the future will fight it, will fight the change, but we shall win, as we always shall. I guess, my friends, the ultimate purpose of this wandering post of mine is to proclaim my belief that we should all find solace knowing that, although there is resistance, good always perserveres. All our fellow people who are homosexual, who suffer gracefully through this time, shall see their freedoms as everyone else's. By the way, first post. :grin:

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10-12-2006, 02:17 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Welcome to the forums, Vivo. If you search this forum for "Homosexuality" you will find some prior posts which propose a different interpretation of that Biblical passage. Please feel free to drop by theLounge and introduce yourself.

10-13-2006, 07:50 AM	#6
davidbach Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: North Carolina Posts: 462	Good post, Good question, Vivo. All sorts of things are condemned in the bible. Homosexuality probably less so than eating pork! We need to make some careful distinctions here. The bible is not a church handbook, nor is it (particularly the old testament) a guide to Christianity. Perhaps the most powerful feature of the bible is that it has a certain mystery. Only an overall study, in context, is useful. So there is a fair latitude for interpretation. That is broadly the position of the mainline churches, though, from time to time even the most traditional chursh can be seized by a bout of mania over some point, for example the ordination of women. There are fringe Christians who typically wave bibles and quote individual verses with an agressive stance such as "Which part of "SHALT NOT" don't you understand?". Anyone who thinks that Mount Everest was once submerged by a flood or that the universe was constructed in seven days is hardly a reliable source on morality and acceptable customs and practices. As a side note, homosexuality was rife in Roman times. Some of the critical stance in the new testament (written mostly in that period) may well have been directed at Roman hegemony rather than any particular practice. Much as we might say today "What do they know, they spend all day drinking champagne on their yachts". David.

10-13-2006, 09:43 AM	#10
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Mod note: please do not ascribe motives to other posters, and do not make assumptions about their personal lives. There are quite a few men who have noticed the sexual bias in Biblical commandments.

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