Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dark Virtue · 09-24-2009, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by badger3k

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

I try to be honest and fair.

Question...how do you know that you are walking the correct Christian path?

Because I'm trying my hardest to obey the commandments of God. What good is being a Christian if I disobey the Holy Father?

Talk about missing the boat. You didn't answer the question. How do you know you are walking the correct path has nothing to do with how hard you work. Try to answer the question, please, as we are all curious. How do you know?

Quote:

I cannot answer for these other Christians. If they don't know any better, then maybe God will see they are rewarded. But those who DO know better will not get that chance.

Because I'm fully aware of the laws and I try to live accordingly. How can you claim I am wrong if I'm obeying the laws of God?

Some of you are acting like I'm re-inventing Christianity. When all I'm doing is following what the bible says to do, and not to do.

The second "how do you know" question was not answered either. We have seen hundreds of Christians (and other religions) who answer the same as you. They all claim to be following the laws of their religions, and they all claim that they are interpreting it all correctly, but none of you can actually give any evidence that you are correct. Just a lot of assertions. What evidence do you have that can tell us that you are correct and everybody else is wrong?

Ditto this...thanks badger!

arnoldo · 09-24-2009, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

It is a false dilemma to imply that in order for a prophetic event to occur towards Israel it must be entirely supernatural, otherwise it is not prophetic.

Well, if the God of the Bible does not exist, and no other possible God intervenes directly in human affairs, that would explain why everything that happens happens naturally. Some examples are that the Gospel message has been spread entirely by word of mouth, at least as far as we know, and if a man is hungry, certainly no God is going to personally give him food to eat, at least as far as we know. I am not aware of any good reasons why a loving God would claim that he cares about people, but force people to try to meet all of their tangible needs on their own.

What you propose is the existence of a God who wants people to hear the Gospel message, but only if another person tells them about it, and who wants people to have enough food to eat, but only if they are able to obtain food through human effort. That does not make any sense. If a human acted like that, you would reject him. The most logical answer is that the God of the Bible does not exist.

Thanks for another example of a false dilema that either God must miraculously rain down bread from heaven (to feed the hungry), supernaturally inform people of the truth (rather than through people) otherwise God doesn't exist. In reference to Bible prophecy the fact remains that Israel's existence in the past and present are prophetic in nature. In order to deny that prophecy isn't possible the position of ontological materialism must be dogmatically maintained. However, there are no logical arguments that can be made to deny that a nonphysical reality,such as prophecy, can't exist.

Johnny Skeptic · 09-24-2009, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

In reference to Bible prophecy the fact remains that Israel's existence in the past and present are prophetic in nature.

If you partly mean that the Partition of Palestine in 1948 was a fulfillment of Bible prophecy, you are wrong, partly because the Bible says that God would give Hebrews "all" of the land of "Canaan" as an "everlasting" covenant. Today, Jews do not control anywhere near all of the land of Canaan, and there is not any credible historical evidence that they ever did. In addition, an everlating convenant cannot begin until the Jews control all of the land of Canaan. There are not any good reasons to believe that that will ever happen.

Johnny Skeptic · 09-24-2009, 02:02 PM

Message to arnoldo: Why isn't it reasonably possible that Abraham falsely believed that God made a land promise to him and his descendants, and that that belief caused modern Jews and Christians to endorse the Partition of Palestine. That is what would be called a self-fulfilled prophecy, which only takes desire and military power to achieve, and without the involvement or even existence of a God.

Johnny Skeptic · 09-24-2009, 02:27 PM

Message to arnoldo: In your opinion, if Micah had predicted that Jesus would heal people, that Pontius Pilate would become the Roman governor of Palestine, and that Titus would destroy the Jewish Temple in 70 A.D., would more Jews have become Christians?

badger3k · 09-24-2009, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Message to arnoldo: Why isn't it reasonably possible that Abraham falsely believed that God made a land promise to him and his descendants, and that that belief caused modern Jews and Christians to endorse the Partition of Palestine. That is what would be called a self-fulfilled prophecy, which only takes desire and military power to achieve, and without the involvement or even existence of a God.

Or that the writers of the myths credited a fictional founding character with a mandate from their god, giving them ownership of lands the did not yet have (but wanted to) or had in their mythical past (the "golden age" idea). The vast unified kingdom of Israel fits into this Golden Age pattern, with mythical heroes and the rest.

Sai · 09-24-2009, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Well, if the God of the Bible does not exist, and no other possible God intervenes directly in human affairs, that would explain why everything that happens happens naturally. Some examples are that the Gospel message has been spread entirely by word of mouth, at least as far as we know, and if a man is hungry, certainly no God is going to personally give him food to eat, at least as far as we know. I am not aware of any good reasons why a loving God would claim that he cares about people, but force people to try to meet all of their tangible needs on their own.

What you propose is the existence of a God who wants people to hear the Gospel message, but only if another person tells them about it, and who wants people to have enough food to eat, but only if they are able to obtain food through human effort. That does not make any sense. If a human acted like that, you would reject him. The most logical answer is that the God of the Bible does not exist.

Thanks for another example of a false dilema that either God must miraculously rain down bread from heaven (to feed the hungry), supernaturally inform people of the truth (rather than through people) otherwise God doesn't exist. In reference to Bible prophecy the fact remains that Israel's existence in the past and present are prophetic in nature. In order to deny that prophecy isn't possible the position of ontological materialism must be dogmatically maintained. However, there are no logical arguments that can be made to deny that a nonphysical reality,such as prophecy, can't exist.

"to deny that prophesy isnt possible"?

No logical arguments? A prophesy involves putting effect before cause.

Please explain the logic of how that can be.

Johnny Skeptic · 09-24-2009, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Thanks for another example of a false dilemma that either God must miraculously rain down bread from heaven (to feed the hungry), supernaturally inform people of the truth (rather than through people) otherwise God doesn't exist.

But human effort alone is not sufficient enough to spread the Gospel message in a timely manner. Even today, some people who live in remote regions of the world have not heard the Gospel message. In addition, human effort alone is not sufficient to ensure that everyone in the world has enough food to eat, especially since God destroys so much food by various means such as hurricanes, typhoons, volcanoes, locusts, etc.

If the God of the Bible does not exist, rational people would expect arguments from Christians just like the arguments that you used since obviously non-existent Gods can never personally do anything.

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09-24-2009, 02:02 PM	#224
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to arnoldo: Why isn't it reasonably possible that Abraham falsely believed that God made a land promise to him and his descendants, and that that belief caused modern Jews and Christians to endorse the Partition of Palestine. That is what would be called a self-fulfilled prophecy, which only takes desire and military power to achieve, and without the involvement or even existence of a God.

09-24-2009, 02:27 PM	#225
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to arnoldo: In your opinion, if Micah had predicted that Jesus would heal people, that Pontius Pilate would become the Roman governor of Palestine, and that Titus would destroy the Jewish Temple in 70 A.D., would more Jews have become Christians?

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