Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Thomas II · 01-03-2009, 07:44 AM

By the way, the documents I posted are Catholic documents.

The Dagda · 01-03-2009, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas II

By the way, the documents I posted are Catholic documents.

I know but let's face it they are a pale imitation of the Cathopaedia, which is the authoritative word of God via The Pope.

Thomas II · 01-03-2009, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Dagda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas II

But transubstantiation is not what I'm talking about.
I'm talking about Jesus himself being the Pascal Lamb.
It is a ritual to have a new covenant with Yahweh!
With Yahweh! Are they having a laugh?
Jesus purposely wanted to go to the cross and be killed.
Jesus was in cahoots with Judas. He did not betray Jesus.
Jesus provoked the arrest.
Jesus wanted to sacrificed himself to Yahweh because he believed that by doing so, Yahweh would establish a new covenant. He would give his blood,and in return...yadayada
The deal was, not only to die, but to perform the sacrificial ritual as he was dying...

I see? But that's just martyrdom and the fulfilment of a prophecy, ie that the stem of Jesse would be despised by many. I don't think it's anything more than a symbolic casting out of sin. After all Jesus may have died, but he returned to show us that the Lord is with us always, and all that stuff. It's not the same as me sacrificing myself and turning up Thursday week admittedly but it's a powerful symbolic message. Can you highlight what you mean by sacrifice clearly? And what implications you think martyrdom has?

But that is not "just martyrdom". When Christians were being killed by lions in the circus, that was martyrdom.
They were not performing a ritual as they were dying, and no covenant was being offered in return for their deaths.
Jesus, on the other hand was performing a ritual throughout the whole ordeal, AND he was performing it because he believed that by doing so he was establishing a new covenant with Yahweh.

Thomas II · 01-03-2009, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Dagda

Can you highlight what you mean by sacrifice clearly? And what implications you think martyrdom has?

This is what I mean. I don't think I can say it better myself:
http://www.latin-mass-society.org/20...sacrifice.html

The Dagda · 01-03-2009, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas II

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Dagda

I see? But that's just martyrdom and the fulfilment of a prophecy, ie that the stem of Jesse would be despised by many. I don't think it's anything more than a symbolic casting out of sin. After all Jesus may have died, but he returned to show us that the Lord is with us always, and all that stuff. It's not the same as me sacrificing myself and turning up Thursday week admittedly but it's a powerful symbolic message. Can you highlight what you mean by sacrifice clearly? And what implications you think martyrdom has?

But that is not "just martyrdom". When Christians were being killed by lions in the circus, that was martyrdom.
They were not performing a ritual as they were dying, and no covenant was being offered in return for their deaths.
Jesus, on the other hand was performing a ritual throughout the whole ordeal, AND he was performing it because he believed that by doing so he was establishing a new covenant with Yahweh.

Not just a new covenant with Yahweh a covenant he was sent to fulfil by God himself in fulfilment of the promises in The Old Testament. So what do you think that means in terms of the symbology of such a sacrifice and the actual act of sacrifice?

Do you think Christianity could even exist if Christ wasn't crucified? Or that the message would be powerful enough on it's own like that message in Thomas's Gospel?

Thomas II · 01-03-2009, 08:15 AM

To put it into perspective:

"Listen, I'm going to perform a ritual to the Flying Spaghetti Monster. The deal is that I get killed while I perform the ritual in honor of the FSM, and that way, the FSM, who likes this sort of thing, will feel better about you guys."

If you hear your mom or dad say that, do you think:
"Hey, thanks! It sounds like a cool thing to do."

Or do you think:

"Shit, he/she has lost his/her marbles..."

I can only hope it's the second one...

Thomas II · 01-03-2009, 08:20 AM

The question is:
Do you see Yahweh to be a mental fabrication of these people from the past, or do you actually believe that Yahweh is an actual divine being who rules the world with a stern hand?

The Dagda · 01-03-2009, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas II

To put it into perspective:

"Listen, I'm going to perform a ritual to the Flying Spaghetti Monster. The deal is that I get killed while I perform the ritual in honor of the FSM, and that way, the FSM, who likes this sort of thing, will feel better about you guys."

If you hear your mom or dad say that, do you think:
"Hey, thanks! It sounds like a cool thing to do."

Or do you think:

"Shit, he/she has lost his/her marbles..."

I can only hope it's the second one...

Yes it's the second. But it is not a literal eating of Jesus it is to symbolise that last meal his sacrifice and the ritual is symbolic. They may say it is literally the flesh, cue one of the divisions behind the wars of protestantism, but it is really more spiritual than that. It's certainly not a cannibalism, or meant to encourage people to sacrifice. Martyrdom is a different kettle of fish, it's not a good idea to confuse the two.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas II

The question is:
Do you see Yahweh to be a mental fabrication of these people from the past, or do you actually believe that Yahweh is an actual divine being who rules the world with a stern hand?

No but in order to understand the ritual you have to understand the mind set, I am as it says in my profile agnostic, and I do not believe in God.

Thomas II · 01-03-2009, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Dagda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas II

To put it into perspective:

"Listen, I'm going to perform a ritual to the Flying Spaghetti Monster. The deal is that I get killed while I perform the ritual in honor of the FSM, and that way, the FSM, who likes this sort of thing, will feel better about you guys."

If you hear your mom or dad say that, do you think:
"Hey, thanks! It sounds like a cool thing to do."

Or do you think:

"Shit, he/she has lost his/her marbles..."

I can only hope it's the second one...

Yes it's the second. But it is not a literal eating of Jesus it is to symbolise that last meal his sacrifice and the ritual is symbolic. They may say it is literally the flesh, cue one of the divisions behind the wars of protestantism, but it is really more spiritual than that. It's certainly not a cannibalism, or meant to encourage people to sacrifice. Martyrdom is a different kettle of fish, it's not a good idea to confuse the two.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas II

The question is:
Do you see Yahweh to be a mental fabrication of these people from the past, or do you actually believe that Yahweh is an actual divine being who rules the world with a stern hand?

No but in order to understand the ritual you have to understand the mind set, I am as it says in my profile agnostic, and I do not believe in God.

For Jesus the ritual was not symbolic but so real that it cost him his life, and that was part of the deal: his blood.
I'm not arguing the point of transubstantiation or symbolism for the people who came after Jesus.
I am only talking here about what the ritual represented for Jesus, and to whom it was directed.

The Dagda · 01-03-2009, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas II

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Dagda

Yes it's the second. But it is not a literal eating of Jesus it is to symbolise that last meal his sacrifice and the ritual is symbolic. They may say it is literally the flesh, cue one of the divisions behind the wars of protestantism, but it is really more spiritual than that. It's certainly not a cannibalism, or meant to encourage people to sacrifice. Martyrdom is a different kettle of fish, it's not a good idea to confuse the two.

No but in order to understand the ritual you have to understand the mind set, I am as it says in my profile agnostic, and I do not believe in God.

For Jesus the ritual was not symbolic but so real that it cost him his life, and that was part of the deal: his blood.

Yeah but that's kinda circular isn't it, God so loved mankind that he gave up his only begotten son. Right so I don't see how such an act of worship is anything but saying thanks for the sacrifice of big JC. I'm not sure what you are trying to say though to be honest.

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01-03-2009, 07:44 AM	#21
Thomas II Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: USA Posts: 8,254	By the way, the documents I posted are Catholic documents.

01-03-2009, 08:15 AM	#26
Thomas II Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: USA Posts: 8,254	To put it into perspective: "Listen, I'm going to perform a ritual to the Flying Spaghetti Monster. The deal is that I get killed while I perform the ritual in honor of the FSM, and that way, the FSM, who likes this sort of thing, will feel better about you guys." If you hear your mom or dad say that, do you think: "Hey, thanks! It sounds like a cool thing to do." Or do you think: "Shit, he/she has lost his/her marbles..." I can only hope it's the second one...

01-03-2009, 08:20 AM	#27
Thomas II Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: USA Posts: 8,254	The question is: Do you see Yahweh to be a mental fabrication of these people from the past, or do you actually believe that Yahweh is an actual divine being who rules the world with a stern hand?

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