Thomas II

Did Jesus believe Yahweh was god?
Did Jesus believe he was the son of Yahweh, the god of Moses?

The Dagda

Yes.

and

Yes, according to scripture, well let's just say it was definitely implied by the Gospels.

Let's just say that I personally think that 1 is irrefutable and 2 is a matter of opinion at ecumenical councils throughout time.

Thomas II

So whenever Jesus talks about god he means Yahweh, the god of the Sinai, the brutal god of war?
Did Jesus see Yahweh as "a good guy"?

The Dagda

You probably want to wait for a comprehensive answer from the resident biblical scholars. But in the mean time, yes I think Jesus did see his father as the brutal God and also the merciful God of a different time, but he had been sent to present a new message, not to destroy the old religion instead to make it accessible to gentile and Jew alike.

Jesus saw his father as a irrefutably moral, being as he was perfect and God, and he himself was the son of God as mentioned at his birth.

At least if you believe that the Gospels and other books are accurate recreations of history.

spamandham

We know nothing about what Jesus believed, except through the various gospels, and they are not history books. So any claims as to what Jesus did or didn't believe, assuming he existed at all, are mere speculation. If there was a historical Jesus, we really don't even know that he was Jewish.

Thomas II

Jesus would then believe in the viability of human sacrifices since he offered himself as the sacrificial lamb...:huh:

He offered himself as a human sacrifice to his father in a blood ritual in order to appease his father...

He immolated himself to quench his father's thirst for human blood...

:constern02:


And you are right...What other god would ask or accept such a cruel and bloody sacrifice if not Yahweh himself, the old god of the volcano...a god that, more than a god, looks like a demon...

Which makes me think that there might have been a delusional aspect to Jesus...

What do you think?

The Dagda

Whilst wars have been started over transubstantiation (wine into blood, bread into flesh) none have been started over Christians believing in human sacrifice. That was seriously frowned upon after Abraham offered his son.

I like the idea of God staring down from heaven with blood on his teeth and beard. But no that's not what the text is meant to convey.

He offered himself to be taken from this life so that man could be given a clean slate and his sins forgiven. Plus I don't think nailing someone up for sedition qualifies as human sacrifice. It's a symbolic gesture not a literal one. He's not really a lamb either.

Thomas II

But that is part of the point! He SAW himself as the lamb!
He DID see himself as the sacrificial lamb!
The whole mass and offering of the Eucharist ritual is a blood ritual where at some point, the priest sprinkles the altar with the blood of the sacrificed offering, in this case, Jesus' blood (in the form of wine).
The Catholic Mass is probably the most accurate ritual.

The Dagda

Er ok, but that's not what it means.

I would give you a link to transubstantiation but the catholic encyclopaedia is down. Christianity is not a blood cult.

That reminds me of this.



http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=70IAwH...x=0&playnext=1

Thomas II

Please read:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur144.htm


And also this. Read, and then we can talk.
http://www.latin-mass-society.org/20...sacrifice.html