Freethought & Rationalism Archive

neilgodfrey · 03-06-2007, 11:12 PM

Anyone who is a fan of Mark's gospel will be absolutely mad if they don't catch up with the podcast or transcript of interview with author of a new book on Mark's gospel, John Carroll (yep, he's a sociologist, "out of his field" and all that) at http://www.abc.net.au/rn/religionrep...07/1864844.htm

He argues that "Mark is one of the pinnacles of Western literature" (Vork, we're not alone!), "I don't think there's anything like it in Western culture", he's a fan of Frank Kermode's "Genesis of Secrecy" (I think I've already alerted this group to my notes on that), and how its a story that works on its sub text.

Carroll says Matthew and Luke are boring by comparison -- they want to tie Christianity in with the OT (missing Mark's point entirely, or rejecting it), but that John was the only one who came close to understanding what Mark was saying.

Mark's Jesus is not a teacher of morals and ethics, he gives up on trying to teach his disciples anything, Simon was named Peter to caricature him as the rocky ground (always jumping in with enthusiasm then withering at the first problem) -- nice to find someone else who agrees with Tolbert on that, too! -- Peter wants to build a church but Mark is anti-church, a fascinating interpretation of the transfiguration! He's solitary, alone, angry, those closest to understanding him are Pilate and Judas. He's not anti-Jewish and takes Jewish religion as a "prototype" for all religion, but is anti the whole Jewish culture that had to end. And his end is alone, without God, on a stake prefigured by the withered fig tree.

I'm sure I'm not going to agree with everything but I won't be reading it to "agree" or "disagree" but to explore another perspective and think afresh.

Misc links to the program at vridar book review section.

judge · 03-07-2007, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilgodfrey

Anyone who is a fan of Mark's gospel will be absolutely mad if they don't catch up with the podcast or transcript of interview with author of a new book on Mark's gospel, John Carroll (yep, he's a sociologist, "out of his field" and all that) at http://www.abc.net.au/rn/religionrep...07/1864844.htm

Thanks, just listening to it and getting a

lot ...

jakejonesiv · 03-09-2007, 07:07 AM

Is this book available in the United States? I would like to get a copy.

Jake

Malachi151 · 03-09-2007, 07:21 AM

This is very similar to my interpretation as well. I think that you have to read the Hebrew texts that "Mark" references in order to understand the story, and the texts that he is references bring a whole new level to the story.

neilgodfrey · 03-09-2007, 12:25 PM

Transcript and podcast of interview with the author are now available and a couple of lengthy pieces -- one by John Carroll himself and another by a reviewer of his book -- have just appeared in a newspaper and are now available online too.

I've left details for all of these, including publisher link, at http://vridar.wordpress.com/tag/book...tential-jesus/

Neil Godfrey

judge · 03-09-2007, 08:24 PM

Been listening to the podcast again and am quite interested in the authors idea that a major christian distortion of the text is the moralising that has occured with the greek word hermatia(?), translated as sin, whereas hermatia just means loss of direction.

In doing so he suggests the focus on the importance of the nature of being is missed, an interesting idea, for me anyway.

He mentions that aristotle uses this word in his theory of tragedy in the sense of a character flaw rather than as sin.

Would this particular book be the best place to pursue this idea, and or are there other places one might explore it?

neilgodfrey · 03-13-2007, 02:12 AM

There's a new review now available of Carroll's "Existential Jesus" in a pdf file 1.4 MB. This review is said by Carroll himself to "quite brilliantly catch the flavour of what [he has] attempted to do" in the book.

It's a philosophic-novelistic like commentary on Mark, with Carroll's own translation. The parts I find most fascinating are his footnotes where he sources insights new to me; but then some of his interpretations, insights and connections he makes without footnote citations (and so presumably original) are barbeque stoppers in themselves. They are not the orthodox connections scholars within a christian heritage habitually make, and for that reason have the potential to a stimulate thoughts of new possibilities in our understandings of the nature and origins of this text. In place of approaching Mark through any of the traditional christian paradigms Carroll views Jesus through existentialist philosophy.

I can't accept his novelistic dramatization of Jesus (imagine how Nietzsche would have written about Jesus if he respected him instead of despising him). I am looking for historical, literary textual analysis. The closest Carroll comes to this is his generous sprinkling of footnotes. But that leaves it up to me to do all the work almost from scratch. I think I'd rather just think about some of the possibilities Carroll raises about this text.

Not that I am likely to be persuaded by his existential Jesus. I'd prefer to limit the imagination of the author to what we know of the Hellenistic philosophical-religious concepts of the time. But for some daring and original insights this book is surely without few equals.

Neil Godfrey

http://vridar.wordpress.com

judge · 03-13-2007, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilgodfrey

But for some daring and original insights this book is surely without few equals.

Neil Godfrey

http://vridar.wordpress.com

Hi Neil I bought the book last weekened, and have been reading it. What exactly do you think are the daring and original insights?

neilgodfrey · 03-13-2007, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Hi Neil I bought the book last weekened, and have been reading it. What exactly do you think are the daring and original insights?

One instance that struck me was the conclusion he drew out from his linking of the scene of John the Baptist's execution with the scene of the healing of Jairus' daughter. I've heard of the verbal linking of the scenes through the description of the young girl in each as korasion, but JC went further as far as I am aware withi pairing Herodias and her daughter with the menopausal (haemorrhaging/stuck in menopause) woman and Jairus' daughter. The day-night contrasts between the two women; the latter being "the corrupted female erotic [finding] its consummation in orgiastic sadism." -- as he notes Euripides explores in the Bacchae. The Bacchae would not normally count except it does find other touch-points with the gospel/NT stories. That, for me, set me thinking anew about both scenes, viewing each against the backdrop of the other more carefully. Who knows, I may end up waking up thinking they should not be viewed this way at all, but I find the whole idea intriguing enough to give it some time till then.

There are a few others that have hit me as I've read, too. Hope this is not just a case of desperation to find some value for my money in the midst of stuff that doesn't do anything for me at all.

When I began reviewing Bauckham it never occurred to me that he'd be a believer in literal miracles and resurrections and when I first heard Carroll interviewed it never occurred to me that he'd be really finding personal (non-religious) meaning in Jesus -- I assume anyone who is serious about studying Mark will be serious about textual and literary and historical criticisms. No doubt John Carroll is, and he has studied all of that. That's obvious. (Hence I'm thankful he's filled it out with footnotes at least.) But I just can't handle the way he writes like a latter-day Nietzsche! I need a dry analytical scholar who registers no personal meaning in the characters to get me excited about the text of Mark.

Neil Godfrey

http://vridar.wordpress.com

neilgodfrey · 03-15-2007, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Hi Neil I bought the book last weekened, and have been reading it. What exactly do you think are the daring and original insights?

Some of the other wilder things I found intriguing at least:

Jesus is the "I am" with no name. (Hence as mysterious a figure as Dr Who). Okay, Carroll is taking the existentialist slant here, but one must also acknowledge that the strongest argument against this arises from our assumptions of Jewish provenance. What if, what if, Mark really was imbued with a bit more Hellenism than most commentaries like to acknowledge. Then the question just may be closer in some ways to Socrates and the question of knowing oneself than we might like to normally think. No no, I'm not saying it is. I'm only saying Carroll opens up the question -- I don't embrace his existentialist view. But I'm at least willing to explore the possibilities his view opens. Where they'll lead, if anywhere, I don't know.

Carroll draws out the implications of the concept of "spirit" being found alike in Jesus as in demons.

The elaboration of the irrational fear the disciples feel in the presence of Jesus. -- while others who are not his followers have no fear but love him.

His walk on the water is viewed in the context of a howling wind, "a great breathing wind" -- the same word as related to spirit -- on the sea where the 'mad pigs' had been hurtled, -- now here its Jesus who descends from the mountain (where god had named himself "i am that i am") like a ghost, a spirit to join the wild spirits. Carroll draws on the opening meaning of Jesus being driven/possessed by the spirit into the wilderness.

When Peter falls asleep, Carroll notes that he symbolically dies with Jesus after all -- as he "promised" he would!

And Carroll also takes up Tolbert's observation that Mark is caricaturing Peter's name by associating it with the rocky soil where seed quickly withers after initial quick growth. The withered hand being healed the the fig tree being withered are symbolic of Jesus' actions to and against Peter.

Fascinating stuff. Not at all acceptable to anyone who insists on reading Mark through Matthew and Luke.

Neil Godfrey

http://vridar.wordpress.com

03-06-2007, 11:12 PM	#1
neilgodfrey Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Darwin, Australia Posts: 874	New book on Gospel of Mark Anyone who is a fan of Mark's gospel will be absolutely mad if they don't catch up with the podcast or transcript of interview with author of a new book on Mark's gospel, John Carroll (yep, he's a sociologist, "out of his field" and all that) at http://www.abc.net.au/rn/religionrep...07/1864844.htm He argues that "Mark is one of the pinnacles of Western literature" (Vork, we're not alone!), "I don't think there's anything like it in Western culture", he's a fan of Frank Kermode's "Genesis of Secrecy" (I think I've already alerted this group to my notes on that), and how its a story that works on its sub text. Carroll says Matthew and Luke are boring by comparison -- they want to tie Christianity in with the OT (missing Mark's point entirely, or rejecting it), but that John was the only one who came close to understanding what Mark was saying. Mark's Jesus is not a teacher of morals and ethics, he gives up on trying to teach his disciples anything, Simon was named Peter to caricature him as the rocky ground (always jumping in with enthusiasm then withering at the first problem) -- nice to find someone else who agrees with Tolbert on that, too! -- Peter wants to build a church but Mark is anti-church, a fascinating interpretation of the transfiguration! He's solitary, alone, angry, those closest to understanding him are Pilate and Judas. He's not anti-Jewish and takes Jewish religion as a "prototype" for all religion, but is anti the whole Jewish culture that had to end. And his end is alone, without God, on a stake prefigured by the withered fig tree. I'm sure I'm not going to agree with everything but I won't be reading it to "agree" or "disagree" but to explore another perspective and think afresh. Misc links to the program at vridar book review section.

03-13-2007, 02:12 AM	#7
neilgodfrey Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Darwin, Australia Posts: 874	new review available There's a new review now available of Carroll's "Existential Jesus" in a pdf file 1.4 MB. This review is said by Carroll himself to "quite brilliantly catch the flavour of what [he has] attempted to do" in the book. It's a philosophic-novelistic like commentary on Mark, with Carroll's own translation. The parts I find most fascinating are his footnotes where he sources insights new to me; but then some of his interpretations, insights and connections he makes without footnote citations (and so presumably original) are barbeque stoppers in themselves. They are not the orthodox connections scholars within a christian heritage habitually make, and for that reason have the potential to a stimulate thoughts of new possibilities in our understandings of the nature and origins of this text. In place of approaching Mark through any of the traditional christian paradigms Carroll views Jesus through existentialist philosophy. I can't accept his novelistic dramatization of Jesus (imagine how Nietzsche would have written about Jesus if he respected him instead of despising him). I am looking for historical, literary textual analysis. The closest Carroll comes to this is his generous sprinkling of footnotes. But that leaves it up to me to do all the work almost from scratch. I think I'd rather just think about some of the possibilities Carroll raises about this text. Not that I am likely to be persuaded by his existential Jesus. I'd prefer to limit the imagination of the author to what we know of the Hellenistic philosophical-religious concepts of the time. But for some daring and original insights this book is surely without few equals. Neil Godfrey http://vridar.wordpress.com

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03-09-2007, 07:07 AM	#3
jakejonesiv Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Atlanta Posts: 2,060	Is this book available in the United States? I would like to get a copy. Jake

03-09-2007, 07:21 AM	#4
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	This is very similar to my interpretation as well. I think that you have to read the Hebrew texts that "Mark" references in order to understand the story, and the texts that he is references bring a whole new level to the story.

03-09-2007, 12:25 PM	#5
neilgodfrey Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Darwin, Australia Posts: 874	Transcript and podcast of interview with the author are now available and a couple of lengthy pieces -- one by John Carroll himself and another by a reviewer of his book -- have just appeared in a newspaper and are now available online too. I've left details for all of these, including publisher link, at http://vridar.wordpress.com/tag/book...tential-jesus/ Neil Godfrey

03-09-2007, 08:24 PM	#6
judge Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Bli Bli Posts: 3,135	Been listening to the podcast again and am quite interested in the authors idea that a major christian distortion of the text is the moralising that has occured with the greek word hermatia(?), translated as sin, whereas hermatia just means loss of direction. In doing so he suggests the focus on the importance of the nature of being is missed, an interesting idea, for me anyway. He mentions that aristotle uses this word in his theory of tragedy in the sense of a character flaw rather than as sin. Would this particular book be the best place to pursue this idea, and or are there other places one might explore it?

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