Clivedurdle

(If Jesus existed...I suppose we should write that a bit like pbuh!)

The el yahweh discussion got me thinking.

Are we clear which god was worshipped by first century jews and xians? Is it an amalgam, what varieties of gods can be seen in a composite? Did different jewish sects worship different members of the elohim?

Phlox Pyros

"Elohim" was a term that came to refer generically to "God" (eg. as we use the term "God" of Allah). Though "Elohim" is plural, it was used as a singular term, similar to how a plural, "mayim", is used for "water" or "shamayim" is used for "heaven" in Hebrew. Yahweh was the sacred name of "God" pronounced by few or none (we do not even know that we have the vowels correct).

The Jews of Jesus' time believed in one God. There were different sects such as the Pharisees and Saducees, but they made no distinction between "El" and "Yahweh". Reading ancient texts of contemporaries of Jesus, such as Philo and/or Josephus, will reveal much about how they believed.

Clivedurdle

That is what is being argued about on the other thread!

Welcome btw!

You mention God and Allah. It is often asserted they are the same, but I do not see it! There is a direct relationship with a god of that meteor which does not seem to be related to the canaanite gods. Also Mazda was a unitary god and king Tut's dad had one, so head gods seem to be quite common - does not mean it is the same one!

So I think it is a legitimate question - which god is jesus's dad? I do not think it is obvious at all!

Thomas II

Catholic dogma says that Jesus was FULLY GOD and FULLY HUMAN.
In order to be FULLY HUMAN he would have had to have a HUMAN FATHER, otherwise he can not be considered to be FULLY HUMAN.
Therefore Jesus father can not be a god.

CaliNORML

The Dad of Jesus was in the way his instinct functioned, he was born with no as we would call them "survival instincts" found in the human brain today.

He would have never thought to protect himself, strike back, rape, make war, or cheat anyone to hoard resources. Ego was not within him.

That "God" gave us life with it came the survival instincts, perfect, yet we all still follow them, we withdraw from snakes automatically, survive. When cornored we will kill another person, if our life is in danger, and a court can not hold you responsible. Life will defend itself instinctualy. Perfection.

By only having a mothers undeniable love, compassion, sacrifice, was he born within a woman, who will starve for her kids to eat, with no basic animal instincts so magnified in human man, even today.

KMS

Buster Daily

LOL. He would have lost a lot of lunch money in my school. Thank god for home schooling. Somehow, without that instinct, he was able to exhibit "righteous" anger towards the money changers at the temple.

Clivedurdle

I am serious about this question. Revelation 1 4 (KJV) onwards states:

This looks like "I am that I am" but who are these seven spirits?

What is this phrase "God and his Father - whose father - Jesus or God?

Revelation also states "Lord God Almighty".

Gospels have "kingdom of God, Son of God, Word of God".

Does xianity introduce new models of god?

CaliNORML

When a mother fights for her off spring, is that a "righteous" anger? Mothers wil defend and fight for their offspring, yet do we think it unfair and totally vicous for her to do so? Jesus fighting over the defamation of his temple is sort of like that, a lion protecting her young, this was the part of humanity only a mother could provide.

He was worse that robbed for his lunch money, he was nailed to a cross, and like in the school yard, no one said a thing for fear that they too would be beaten up on. Where were the teachers? They were letting it go on, as a the priests who directed and taught the people, were the ones who led the fight.

The son of "God" is the word, compassion. The spirit of "God" is what gave us this life to begin with, the aggresive rules of animals we too are prone to follow, all natural instincts that tell us go against compassion. Both are perfect, even if in direct contrast to each other.

KMS

polyseeme

CaliNORML, theologically, it is possible to infer from your statements that Jesus was the offspring of a lesbian union. That is, if his lack of survival instincts and self-sacrificing compassion come from "feminine" characteristics that "only a mother could provide," perhaps he did not have a "dad" at all. Although this is going to sound disingenuous, I mean my question seriously - is your conceptualization of god possibly not a Father? An early influence on my thinking was radical lesbian thealogian Mary Daly, who posits that God is genderless by being a verb. (See my discussion under Definitions of Atheism for why I no longer feel a need to call such a verb "God.")

Biologically this idea is problematic because where would a male Jesus get his Y-chromosome? In the realm of miracles and the supernatural, of course, we are beyond such pedantic objections. Spiritually, the question is still viable: some liberal feminist theologians hold that the Holy Spirit, Sophia, is female. If Sophia overcame the Virgin Mary and impregnated her, this would in fact be a lesbian union. Although I don't personally believe that Jesus even existed as an individual (but rather a type of first-century person, a Jewish preacher of rebellion against Rome who tended to get himself into big trouble with the authorities), for those who do, how do you justify the masculinity of his Father - or do you bother? Is avoiding the theological possibility of Jesus being the offspring of a lesbian union important to you? Or is this a possibility you embrace?

CaliNORML

Yes I can see your point there, however that was not exactly my thoughts but I can not fault you, I can only try to explain my "Theory" further, thanks.

Mankind is based in that first instinct to survive, Aids is selfish in it's actions, yet it seems so intelligent as it seeks only to survive against our efforts to kill it off, such is the basis of human survival instincts, we too at times are no better than all the life around us in that respect. Except that it is mens brains to be more so than in women.

This tactic does help us women, it provides food, so that we may further bond with our young and makes us "the weaker" of the species, yet we have other strengths that men are capable of also, empathy, compassion, sacrifice, and a greater ability to communicate. It these alone passed to Jesus.

Not only is this frontal brain activity in women, it is inside men too only it is hardly ever heard as strongly as in women. It was this higher "good" in mankinds brains, some leave to atrophy, not to follow only the Ego side of "life," Jesus never had an instinct to do this behavior. Even as a baby, he would not fight for a bottle over another infant, no sense of his own welfare above those around him.

Men of great courage usually are Heros for such acts, look at the 9/11 disaster. Those men who gave their own lives for others, even if they feared for their own for only a second, still went in to those towers. Men can act this way as well, with sacrifice and compassion, only it is usualy not considered "Macho" to do so. It was that Jesus would have never even had to overcome the fear of his own life even for a second, that shows how he was so different.

The birth of Buddah states this too, he was born without the 3 lower chakras those of the "animal" at the 4th Chakra from his mothers side. This tells me thjat inside his brain as well it was possible he too was born with no "animal" instincts. This theme is repeated.

When the Buddah was 7 days old the story says he stood up and pointed to the earth and said "Earth below me" To me this says he was born with no Earthly survival instincts. "Heaven above me" meaning that he only thought of higher thoughts given to all men, and women. "No one on Earth like me." he finished, meaning that people with this birth "pure" are very, very rare, as rare as Autism used to be.

This story was only shown to me in the Bible in more symbolism when I read where Jesus was cruxified, on the Skull. If looked at carefully, and if this Skull were a real human head, Jesus was killed at the place in our own physical beings, where science tells us today the root of compassion lies in our brain under the skull.

This is the whole point to the story, men have this inside them too, it is not totally woman on woman, they just use this way of thinking less. Jesus was the example of that duality created in man, one set of rules to "live by" and one set of Compassion to give us "life."

If women were held as examples of such things as honored among men, then they would not be oppressed. As such this thought of the lower animals kept a woman from saving her son. She would not be listened to because of that instinct of lower beasts, to dominate life and all it's resources.

KMS