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Old 05-03-2006, 04:41 AM   #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamera
Whatever blameless means (and I don't know the semantic range of the Hebrew word) it doesn't mean righteous (I suspect it means something like "a good guy")
Nice try. Blameless means they did not violate God's laws. Remember the context. You get points for obeying your God's Laws. You lose them for violating your God's Laws. Blame is assigned for every violation of God's Laws
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and since Job is generally believed to be associated with the timeframe of Genesis (it's part of the Poetical Books of the Hebrew Canon) Job certainly isn't blameless for following the Law, since it wasn't given yet!
Maybe. But we do know that the word righteous is applied to those who follow your God's commands:

Deuteronomy 6:25

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And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.
Job could have lived at anytime. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that Job followed Yahweh's laws. One set of laws he was sure to have followed were the Noachian laws.
So either way you slice it Job was righteous in the sense that he followed God's laws.

You're also forgetting Asa whose heart was perfect with the LORD all his days (1 Kings 15:14)




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So again no OT verse showing anybody to be righteous for keeping the Law.
You have yet to prove this assertion


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Righteousness in the mouth of a NT writer means rigtheous through faith.
You've got to be joking. Read the text. The two of them are described as righteous in the first phrase of the verse and then described as righteous in the next. It's basic grammar my friend. The two phrases are apposite. It's like saying I met the new teacher, the one from New Jersey. The two verses are directly related to each other and join together to describe the teacher. The two phrases are not put in the same sentence only to bear no relation to each other.
This Jesuitical parsing and massaging of texts on your part is shameful way to defend your beliefs.

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Are you really arguing that Elizabeth and Zechariah never violated one single commandment or ordinance. Nonsense.
Sorry. That's what the text says.
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They did,
Book/Chapter/Verse?

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but their faith made them righteous, despite their failings.
Please point to the verse where I can see this for myself

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Just as it did for Abraham, who failed miserably over and over again
Abraham's faith is in no way similar to the Paulinian doctrine of faith in JC as a human blood sacrifice. Jews are commanded to have faith in their god in the sense of trusting him to do what's best for them but they do not share your tattered and strained belief in JC as a human blood sacrifice. It would be a violation of your God's laws to do so.
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Old 05-03-2006, 04:58 AM   #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamera
As to the righteous being persecuted, yes they were righteous like Abraham, through faith, not through following the Law.
Wrong. Righteousness is synonymous with obeying your God's Laws.
Deuteronomy 6:25:

Quote:
And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us
Abraham had faith in God but not in Jesus as a human blood sacrifice.
Quit trying to conflate the normal definition of faith with the Paulinian doctrine of faith in JC as a human blood sacrifice.

And, in case you forgot, there is no mention of faith in Jesus or anybody else as a human blood sacrifice anywhere in the OT.

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You keep avoiding this assertion that is reiterated over and over again in the NT.
You have yet to provide proof of any assertion of yours

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But don't say you are following the NT when the NT says explicitly that righteousness comes through faith, not works.
Only problem is the NT makes clear time and again that righteousness comes through obeying the commandments:

Luke 1:5-6
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5 THERE was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Mathew 5:17-20
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17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
OOOPS! There's more proof of people being righteous and being righteous through obeying your God's commandments. The Pharisees were devout followers of the Law.

Rev. 22:14

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Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
What was that about the NT not saying that righteousness comes through works?
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Old 05-03-2006, 05:35 AM   #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar
Anyone ready to return to the topic of this thread,
"When and where are the OT Laws repealed"?
They never were, and are all still in effect against those who refuse the gift of His favor, which is freely given to all who believe on Him.
You see that's your problem. Your use of language betrays not only your contempt for your God's Laws but your misunderstanding of them. Are the Laws of the U.S. in effect against you? No. The laws are there to protect you against evil-doers. The laws are there to make society run justly and logically.

You have no scriptural justification for your use of "against" here.
There is no mention of faith in Jesus as a human blood sacrifice anywhere in your God's Laws or anywhere else in the OT.

You're fooling no one by saying the Laws of your God were not repealed. Paul gave you licence to ignore your God's laws. When no one obeys laws under the order of a third party those laws are in effect repealed. Word games don't change that.

You still have a number of problems to deal with here:

1) Perfect Laws don't get replaced, erased or supplanted by any other law or notion or doctrine. That's why they're perfect: because they are all you require for salvation. God did not make a mistake when he issued his laws. Or did he? Choice is yours.

2) Eternal Laws never go out of date. They always apply. Your god created his laws as an everlasting bond between you and him.

3) There is no mention of faith in a human blood sacrifice.
anywhere in God's perfect and eternal Laws

4) The Paulinian concept/doctrine of faith in Jesus as a human blood sacrifice is unknown, it is foreign to the Old Testament.

5) Your god calls his laws perfect. That means he knows something about his laws that you don't. So your calling his laws brutal and imperfect and outdated is arrogance on your part. It's prideful. You do not know more than your god. He is omnipotent and you are not. That means anything you dislike about your God's laws has its perfect place in your God's perfect laws and plan.
If you want to talk about faith, now is the time.

6) You have no refuge in JC. Not only does JC himself say you have to obey his commandments but if JC is as the expected Messiah as you xians claim he is then you better head for your nearest Rabbi now because the expected messiah will not only be righteous (Ezek 36:27) but he will also usher in an era of full Torah observance (Ezek 37:24) (Jeremiah 33:15).

7) Your God expressly forbid altering or diminishing His laws:

Deut. 4:2
Quote:
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
8) JC himself says you have to obey his and his father's eternal and perfect laws if you want salvation:

Mathew 5:17-20 It's interesting to note here that JC does sound like the expected messiah here in Mathew 5:17-20

Quote:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

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But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
To make matters worse for you Paulinians, JC says his words last forever (Matt. 24:35). That means his laws, his father's perfect and eternal laws apply to you forever.
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