spin

I wholeheartedly agree with this conclusion.

Just to add a little more to make the connection even more obvious, a few more quotes:

Prov 2:6, For the lord gives wisdom; from his mouth comes knowledge and understanding. (From his mouth!)

Ben Sira 24:3, I (Wisdom) came forth from the mouth of the most high and covered the earth like a mist.

What comes forth from the mouth of god, but the logos? Wisdom was the original logos. Ben Sira goes further, making the mist that covered the earth in Gen 2:6 Wisdom, there at creation.

Wisdom was there at the beginning and instrumental in the creation itself. This makes clear the ideas in "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with god and god was the word. This was in the beginning with god. All things came into being through him and without him not one thing came into being."

But coming back to the OP, Ben Sira 24:23 says of Wisdom,

All this is the book of the covenant of the most high, the law that Moses commanded us as an inheritance for the congregations of Jacob.

If Wisdom is the logos then the logos is the law -- it is the word of god, isn't it?


spin

gstafleu

A god who utters a word in order to create something is not that unusual. First, we see this happening in Genesis 1: creation is linked to god via words ("let there be light"). God didn't have scriptures to relate himself back to .

We see the same happening in an Egyptian creation myth, where Ptah speaks things into existence. To quote the Wikipedia page on Ptah: "It was said (in the Shabaka Stone) that it was Ptah who called the world into being, having dreamt creation in his heart, and speaking it, his name meaning opener, in the sense of opener of the mouth."

In An African Cosmogony Bumba vomits up the world; an extension of the concept, but things still come out of his mouth.

In the Yuki creation myth Solitude Walker speaks both the earth and human beings into existence.

Cultural supremacists can of course claim Christian influence in various places, although that is a bit difficult with Ptah.

So the idea that in the beginning there was a god who then spoke a word which created things is not unusual: the word is linked to the god and creation is is linked to the word and hence to the god.

Gerard Stafleu

Euphen

Philo refers to Wisdom as begotten by God:

Also this passage from 1 Enoch 42 is interesting:

spamandham

if the opening paragraph is telling us that the scriptures are the messiah, then we have entered the world of symbolism, and all bets are off. We should then be looking for what later verse mean symbolically in relation to the Jewish scriptures.

On the side, not being a scholar of any kind, my question about verse 14 would be whether or not it is a likely later addition. I don't think that's central though.

spamandham

The link doesn't seem to work.

spamandham

It wouldn't take much to convince me that the original gospel stories were invented by Rome for political purposes, but I'm having a hard time seeing why "the word" refers to what you are suggesting.

Toto

Google cache

Charles Wilson

"The Word" is not a high level metaphysics. It is seen in the "Blind Man" stories of Jesus, esp. in GJohn.

The Temple is about to be razed and the Legions are poised for the Siege of Jerusalem. Titus is asking a "blind man" if he can "see" that destruction is coming. "I see trees, big as people, and moving" When he is "healed", he sees "quite distinctly" what is about to happen.

This is not metaphysics or a miraculous healing. "Do you see that Jerusalem is about to fall?" "Yes." "Then you are healed of your blindness."

"The Word" comes after the start of Book 3 in _Wars of the Jews_. Nero is angry over the coming loss of the eastern part of the empire. He sends in Vespasian, who brings his son Titus.

Nero dies and Vespasian and Titus kick ass and take names. "Now is the time for the Father to glorify the son for doing his work."

No Problem, Titus. Our WORD will make you a god as is our right. The eastern nations will bow down to you as they would not before. For they will soon see that our word will be made flesh.

SPQR.

Charles

John Kesler

Yes. The OP states that, "early Christians believed the Jewish scriptures themselves to be the Messiah." I think that, as John 20:31 states, Jesus was believed to be the Messiah, and his existence and purpose came to be understood via the language applied to Wisdom, which was equated with God's word and law. Baruch 3:36-4:1 equates Wisdom with the law, and Wisdom of Solomon 9:1 states that God created by his word/wisdom:

I don't think that "all bets are off" that Jesus was believed to be the Messiah just because language applied to him was also applied to Wisdom/God's Word/Law.

jakejonesiv

In the Asssumption of Moses, the dying Moses tells Joshua to anoint his writings.

And receive this writing that you may know how to preserve the books which I shall deliver unto you: and you shall set these in order and anoint them with oil of cedar and put them away in earthen vessels in the place which He made from the beginning of the creation of the world, that His name should be called upon until the day of repentance in the visitation wherewith the Lord will visit them in the consummation of the end of the days.

:huh:

Jake Jones IV