Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spamandham · 02-21-2007, 10:11 PM

It seems to me, there are several tacit admissions in the writings of the New Testament that early Christians believed the Jewish scriptures themselves to be the Messiah.

I'm not an expert of any kind on ancient language or history, but am simply drawing what I think to be a reasonable conclusion based on the following.

- John 1:1-5.
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

John links the 'word' to god himself. It seems to me you have to go through contortions to interpret this as something other than the Jewish scriptures. Why is the simplest read not simply "our understanding of god comes from the scriptures from the very beginning, and they are our entire knowledge of him. Those who don't get this are in the dark."?

- Paul refers to Logos as well. Why is this 'word of god' not literally understood to be the Jewish scriptures?

I welcome all criticism of this, as well as other similar examples.

:huh:

GakuseiDon · 02-21-2007, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

- Paul refers to Logos as well. Why is this 'word of god' not literally understood to be the Jewish scriptures?

I welcome all criticism of this, as well as other similar examples.

:huh:

I'm not sure that I've ever read the Logos being associated directly to Scriptures. The Greeks thought of the "Logos" as "Reason". Think of it as an "organizing principle", both physically and spiritually (my own interpretation, btw). The unchanging and perfect God that existed outside matter expressed the Logos in order to create the world of matter. Philo took the Greek Logos and adapted it to his own notion of God, and the Christians took a similar view and associated it with Jesus. Here is Philo's view:
http://www.iep.utm.edu/p/philo.htm#SH11m

John Kesler · 02-22-2007, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

John links the 'word' to god himself. It seems to me you have to go through contortions to interpret this as something other than the Jewish scriptures. Why is the simplest read not simply "our understanding of god comes from the scriptures from the very beginning, and they are our entire knowledge of him. Those who don't get this are in the dark."?

Read verse 14:

Quote:

1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14 And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father's only son, full of grace and truth.

Malachi151 · 02-22-2007, 05:58 AM

Also interesting:

Quote:

I have done my will in everything in this earth. I have spread myself abroad therein, and I have made strong my hand. I was ONE by myself, for they had not been brought forth, and I had emitted from myself neither Shu nor Tefnut. I brought my own name into my mouth as a word of power, and I forthwith came into being under the form of things which are and under the form of Khepera. I came into being from out of primeval matter, and from the beginning I appeared under the form of the multitudinous things which exist; nothing whatsoever existed at that time in this earth, and it was I who made whatsoever was made. I was ONE: by myself, and there was no other being who worked with me in that place. I made all the things under the forms of which I appeared then by means of the Soul-God which I raised into firmness at that time from out of Nu, from a state of inactivity. I found no place whatsoever there whereon I could stand, I worked by the power of a spell by means of my heart, I laid a foundation [for things] before me, and whatsoever was made, I made. I was ONE by myself, and I laid the foundation of things [by means of] my heart, and I made the other things which came into being, and the things of Khepera which were made were manifold, and their offspring came into existence from the things to which they gave birth. I it was who emitted Shu, and I it was who emitted Tefnut, and from being the ONE god, I became three gods;

- The Book of Knowing the Evolutions of Ra, and of Overthrowing Apep; 6th century BCE

John Kesler · 02-22-2007, 07:07 AM

The Jewish antecedent for John's view of Jesus is found in OT and Apocryphal writings in praise of personified wisdom. Here are a few passages:

Quote:

Proverbs 8:
22 Yahweh created me at the beginning of his work,
the first of his acts of long ago.
23 Ages ago I was set up,
at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,
when there were no springs abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains had been shaped,
before the hills, I was brought forth--
26 when he had not yet made earth and fields,
or the world's first bits of soil.
27 When he established the heavens, I was there,
when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 when he made firm the skies above,
when he established the fountains of the deep,
29 when he assigned to the sea its limit,
so that the waters might not transgress his command,
when he marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 then I was beside him, like a master worker;
and I was daily his delight,
rejoicing before him always,
31 rejoicing in his inhabited world
and delighting in the human race.

Sirach 24:
8 "Then the Creator of all things gave me a command,
and my Creator chose the place for my tent.
He said, 'Make your dwelling in Jacob,
and in Israel receive your inheritance.'
9 Before the ages, in the beginning, he created me,
and for all the ages I shall not cease to be.

Baruch 3:
36 [God] found the whole way to knowledge,
and gave her to his servant Jacob
and to Israel, whom he loved.
37 Afterward she appeared on earth
and lived with humankind.

Malachi151 · 02-22-2007, 07:24 AM

Quote:

30 then I was beside him, like a master worker;

Hmm.. you mean... like... a "carpenter"..... lol

Charles Wilson · 02-22-2007, 07:33 AM

"The word" is the vote of the Senate to apply godhood to Vespasian and then to Titus. GJohn parallels the _Wars of the Jews_, Book 3 in many places.

This passage is stating that the coming of V and T marks the "fulfillment" of the Jewish scripture with the full backing of the Senate and Legions of Rome.

Charles

Malachi151 · 02-22-2007, 07:48 AM

John, you left something out of Proverbs 8:

Quote:

Proverbs 8:
35 For whoever finds me finds life
and obtains favor from the Lord;
36 but those who miss me injure themselves;
all who hate me love death

Quote:

John 3:
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Also, as regards the OP the part you left off of Baruch says:

Quote:

Baruch 3:
36 [God] found the whole way to knowledge,
and gave her to his servant Jacob
and to Israel, whom he loved.
37 Afterward she appeared on earth
and lived with humankind.

Brauch 4:
She is the book of the commandments of God,
the law that endures forever,
All who hold her fast will live,
and those who forsake her will die.

Malachi151 · 02-22-2007, 08:02 AM

This brings me to a question. I have heard something about some groups believing that Christ was a female or androgynous. Is this correct, or just nonsense?

Malachi151 · 02-22-2007, 08:25 AM

To follow up on this wisdom business:

Quote:

1 Corinthians 1:
23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Quote:

1 Corinthians 2
6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.

So, one could argue for Wisdom as depicted in Proverbs, Sirach, Baruch, etc., to a gnostic concept of Christ as Wisdom, to Paul's concept of Christ as Wisdom, to John's Logos/Word, etc., etc.

02-21-2007, 10:11 PM	#1
spamandham Contributor Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,525	In the beginning was the word... It seems to me, there are several tacit admissions in the writings of the New Testament that early Christians believed the Jewish scriptures themselves to be the Messiah. I'm not an expert of any kind on ancient language or history, but am simply drawing what I think to be a reasonable conclusion based on the following. - John 1:1-5. 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. John links the 'word' to god himself. It seems to me you have to go through contortions to interpret this as something other than the Jewish scriptures. Why is the simplest read not simply "our understanding of god comes from the scriptures from the very beginning, and they are our entire knowledge of him. Those who don't get this are in the dark."? - Paul refers to Logos as well. Why is this 'word of god' not literally understood to be the Jewish scriptures? I welcome all criticism of this, as well as other similar examples. :huh:

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02-22-2007, 07:33 AM	#7
Charles Wilson Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Saint Petersburg, Fl Posts: 51	"The word" is the vote of the Senate to apply godhood to Vespasian and then to Titus. GJohn parallels the _Wars of the Jews_, Book 3 in many places. This passage is stating that the coming of V and T marks the "fulfillment" of the Jewish scripture with the full backing of the Senate and Legions of Rome. Charles

02-22-2007, 08:02 AM	#9
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	This brings me to a question. I have heard something about some groups believing that Christ was a female or androgynous. Is this correct, or just nonsense?

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