Chris Weimer

The modern Christian notion of abortion is that the foetus is a human life. By logical extension, miscarriages are human deaths. But if Exodus describes foetus' as not human, then by extension abortion isn't murder.

Ah, gotcha.

It would have just been useful to look for references to abortion/miscarriages in a certain time period. I suppose I'll have to look for references c. 500 BCE - 100 BCE? Don't know if I'll find any...

Off to look.

spin

I think you're asking too much from the passage: "...so that her child YLD goes out of her" -- YLD seems to be clear; "a life for a life", well "a soul NP$ for a soul" -- the normal word for life is XY.


spin

Chris Weimer

I'm not really sure how I'm asking the passage too much, nor how the difference between YLD and XY has on my interpretation?

gaillardia

Where do you look? E. Brittanica? I remember reading references to ancient abortifacients, i.e., wormwood, but don't--well now an herbal text might have a clue.

spin

By calling what falls from the woman a YLD, ie a child, I think life status is in some way imparted to the object. This is not changed by "a life for a life", especially when the word should probably be "a soul for a soul". This happily allows for a foetus to have "life" status, but not "soul" status which may be imparted when the child first breathes.


spin

gaillardia

and Soranus, of course, whoever he is (thanks Chris). I need a nap. Doubt I'll have anything herbal in my little library that refers to more ancient than that in any citeable fashion. I'll google ol Sor. Thanks Chris, Spin, and Anat. More is welcome.

Anat

gaillardia, I used Mechon-Mamre's site. The most literal translation of 'nefel' would be 'that which has fallen (out)', not necessarily 'caused to have fallen'.

gaillardia

Um, what word does Ex. 21 use for 'miscarriage,' if not the 'nefel' of Job 3? And are you all saying that the word for what is miscarried is more relevant to understanding it? What translation is JPS?

Anat

JPS=Jewish Publication Society. See the preface to their 1917 translation.

Exodus 21:22 says "weyatz'u yeladeyha" literally "and her children came out".

gaillardia

If you know, does "children" here refer to something recognized as a child as opposed to a fetus, or is it just a sort of generic for what's carried in her womb? Now I seem to recall reading, maybe on Farrell Till's site, that under old Jewish law, newborns sometimes weren't considered actual people for some time after they were born, or some such. Haven't read it in a while. In any case, I get the impression that the native language of neither this text nor Job 3 indicates abortion, neither from the words themselves or the syntax they appear in.