gaillardia

Job 3:16. 16 (Or as a hidden abortion I am not, As infants -- they have not seen light.) This is Young's Literal Translation, from Bible Crosswalk. I know the peril of literal translation, but re a debate I'm in, this is the only reference to abortion as such I can find in the Bible. Is it a legitimate use of the word, or would another word serve for a "literal" translation? Would miscarriage more accurately render the word, as other translations give it? Some render the product of the abortion as infant or young child. Anyone with input? thanks

Anat

From the context, Job is expressing the impossible wish to not have been born alive, but I don't know if it is possible to tell whether his premature death should have been accidental or deliberate. JPS translates it as " Or as a hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants that never saw light." The Hebrew word is 'nefel' which has to do with falling (the fetus 'falling' out of the womb).

gaillardia

thanks Anat. Can I find an online reference for your info, especially the individual word stuff? And for anyone else who posts, I'd appreciate if possible an accessible reference as well, since I might have to cite it. thanks so much

gaillardia

Anat, do I take it that the word itself does not imply purposefully inducing the 'falling'?

Chris Weimer

Exodus 21.22-23 is also very relevant to your debate.

gaillardia

Thanks Chris. I don't know if that will come up. Probably will if this local controversy continues. I don't see how it talks about anything other than injury to the woman. The miscarriage resulting from her injury is treated as damage to her, as I read it, not to the miscarried fetus. Where's Spin?:notworthy:

spin

I must admit, Anat has said all that is necessary to understand the issue.

Ex 21:22-23 is a red herring: the relevant term NPL is not present.

I don't think abortion in that period was anything men knew about. There weren't doctors to perform such operations.

How Young's got the word "abortion" I don't know. In the other two uses of NPL in this manner, ie Ps 58:8 and Ecc 6:3, Young's gives the standard "untimely birth". Forget Young's. (And note the similarity with Ps 58:8, "never see the light", "never see the sun".)

"Untimely birth" can only seriously mean one that falls too soon, ie not at the correct time. RSV and NIV give "stillborn child". JPS "stillborn".

Abortion can't be derived from the text, nor does it reflect the era, as I understand it.


spin

Chris Weimer

From what I gathered, he wasn't referring to merely abortion, but most likely abortion in the bible. Exodus 21.22-23 quite clearly is talking about a lost pregnancy from inflicted injuries.

I would think it likely that they used/knew of ways to get rid of the foetus. They were backward enough that no information was passed on, but I doubt that they had no information at all. Soranus in the 100s CE knew of herbs and ways to rid the body of a child, which in turn must reflect a prior source of knowledge.

Spin - when do you date Exodus and Job?

Chris Weimer

It's the larger implication that matters. If the pregnancy is terminated because of injury sustained to the woman, then the offender pays. But if the woman dies, then it is life for life. Thus, the unborn child is not a life.

spin

I still can't see the relevance to the notion of abortion.

My choice of "men" in my statement wasn't casual. I wasn't implying people didn't know about abortion, merely men.

That's a casual opening of a can of worms or two. While I doubt that any of the texts we have were pre-exilic, looking for a terminus ante quem is not easy. On the notion of the exodus, I find in Josephus (the so-called "Contra Apion") Egyptians translating the Hyksos into the Hebrews. Is this where tthe notion of the exodus came from? (Job I'm too lazy even to think about it!)


spin