Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 03-13-2012, 04:43 PM

BTW, the following extract explicitly mentions a religious motivation for the persecution and "death camps" at Scythopolis . We may say that at least some percentage of the pagans PHYSICALLY disappeared from planet Earth at Scythopolis under this "Christian tribunal" and "Paulus the Chain".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ammianus

SOURCE

XII.

3. A slight and trivial circumstance afforded infinite material for extending his investigations. There is a town called Abydum in the most remote corner of the Egyptian Thebais, where an oracle of the god, known in that region by the name of Besa, had formerly enjoyed some celebrity for its prophecies, and had sacred rites performed at it with all the ceremonies anciently in use in the neighbouring districts.

4. Some used to go themselves to consult this oracle, some to send by others documents containing their wishes, and with prayers couched in explicit language inquired the will of the deities; and the paper or parchment on which their wants were written, after the answer had been given, was sometimes left in the temple.

5. Some of these were spitefully sent to the emperor, and he, narrow minded as he was, though often deaf to other matters of serious consequence, had, as the proverb says, a soft place in his ear for this kind of information; and being of a suspicious and petty temper, became full of gall and fury; and immediately ordered Paulus to repair with all speed to the East, giving him authority, as to a chief of great eminence and experience, to try all the causes as he pleased.

Duvduv · 03-13-2012, 04:51 PM

It would seem that in most cases (aside from Arians and Nestorians) the sources mentioned individuals without even discussing who their followers were, where they were located, what happened to them and how the orthodox related to them. Where were the gnostic communities and churches in the 4th or 5th centuries? Where did the Arians live, and the Nestorians?
Why did they disappear so easily from within the territories where the orthodox were located?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Much discussion, classification and commentary upon the anti-Christian heresies of the 4th century is sourced in Epiphanius's "Panarion" an English translation of which is not available to the general public on the internet. Ditto for the Theodosian Code.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

But the councils and heresiologists weren't dealing only with baptism. They were addressing so-called false teachings and doctrines which would seem to be the rationale of Paul's condemnation of false gospels inserted into epistles.

So all I am wondering about is where are the details about the way the empire handled specific communities representing the alternative teachings to the orthodox.?

Where are the Theodosian laws dealing with all sorts of sects, where were they, and where are the anecdotes about those groups?

mountainman · 03-13-2012, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

It would seem that in most cases (aside from Arians and Nestorians) the sources mentioned individuals without even discussing who their followers were, where they were located, what happened to them and how the orthodox related to them.

The laws enacted by the Christian Emperors relating to the execution of pagans allows us to generally understand how the orthodox related to the pagans.

Quote:

Where were the gnostic communities and churches in the 4th or 5th centuries?

Out of town. In Australia we use the expression "went bush". Nag Hammadi is hundreds of miles removed from Alexandria. There was a mass movement of people in the rule of Constantine and Consantius to the deserts. If people were given the choice of becoming a member of the centralised monotheistic state religious cult, or becoming a desert hermit or communal monk (both male or female) many chose the latter.

Quote:

Where did the Arians live ...

Between 325 and 336 CE Arius himself was whereabouts unknown. The letters of Constantine to him indicate that Constantine throught he may have been in Syria. He went underground. It was not safe anywhere else.

Quote:

... and the Nestorians?

Wherever they were they were put to flight by the political and religious anathemas of the master heresiologist Cyril. Some escaped.

Quote:

Why did they disappear so easily from within the territories where the orthodox were located?

Which brings us back to the OP.

The word FLEEING is an essential term to understand.

It is used in the Nag Hammadi codices and is found on some papyri. The prayer for many was that they would be able to FLEE and not get caught. Dont forget, there were imperial laws controlling and restricting geographical and social mobility. Everyone was to stay put and continue whatever occupation they were raised in. (This assisted the job of tax collection).

Duvduv · 03-13-2012, 05:42 PM

So all the sects were small enough to go underground or escape and did not encompass whole communities, towns, etc. in various parts of the empire? And if so, that might mean that the "orthodox" themselves as a group were also not very large, but just happened to have had some people in the right places at the right time?

mountainman · 03-14-2012, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

So all the sects were small enough to go underground or escape and did not encompass whole communities, towns, etc. in various parts of the empire?

AFAIK there was a milieu of pagan (Egypto-Graeco-Roman religion) sects of various sizes. The largest sect was probably related to the enormous network of temples and shrines to Asclepius. The smaller sects perhaps had isolated temples and shrines. All of these sects, large and small, were variously represented in the communities of cities and towns and villages.

Quote:

And if so, that might mean that the "orthodox" themselves as a group were also not very large, but just happened to have had some people in the right places at the right time?

Yes I think that the "orthodox" first took control of the major cities and then gradually worked their way through towards a homogeneity by later extending to the towns and smaller villages, where the "pagans" were last left alive. The cities were secured for the centralised monotheistic state religious cult by Constantine, very early in the preceedings of his revolution. The major cities of Rome, Antioch, Nova Roma and Alexandria were the first to be targetted for conversion.

The right people in the right place and the right time were key military agents of the Emperor. The personal appointment of "bishops" to all the many dioceses of the empire was another logical operation out of which the Christian Emperor could reasonably expect to have some people in the right places at the right time.

mountainman · 03-15-2012, 12:39 AM

Did 4th century Christians organise death camps for Gentiles at Skythopolis c.359 CE?

Interesting responses at historum. What Rassias calls "death camps" might be better described as the first attested Auto de Fe of all Christian history. It seems to have commenced at Nicaea c.325 CE, as soon as the centralised monotheistic state Christian religious cult was officially incorporated.

Quote:

An auto-da-fé (also auto da fé and auto de fe) was the ritual of public penance of condemned heretics and apostates that took place when the Spanish Inquisition or the Portuguese Inquisition had decided their punishment, followed by the execution by the civil authorities of the sentences imposed. Both auto de fe in medieval Spanish and auto da fé in Portuguese mean "act of faith".

As execution by burning was more memorable than the penance which preceded it, in popular use the term came to mean the burning rather than the penance.

Sheshbazzar · 03-15-2012, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Between 325 and 336 CE Arius himself was whereabouts unknown. The letters of Constantine to him indicate that Constantine throught he may have been in Syria.

Constantine; 'Arius o'Arius? ....Where ever have you got yourself to Arius?
Arius? ...You hear me talking to you Arius? You better get your ass back here right now Arius so's that I can keel you.' :Cheeky:

:hysterical:

la70119 · 03-15-2012, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

It would seem that in most cases (aside from Arians and Nestorians) the sources mentioned individuals without even discussing who their followers were, where they were located, what happened to them and how the orthodox related to them.

The laws enacted by the Christian Emperors relating to the execution of pagans allows us to generally understand how the orthodox related to the pagans.

Out of town. In Australia we use the expression "went bush". Nag Hammadi is hundreds of miles removed from Alexandria. There was a mass movement of people in the rule of Constantine and Consantius to the deserts. If people were given the choice of becoming a member of the centralised monotheistic state religious cult, or becoming a desert hermit or communal monk (both male or female) many chose the latter.

Between 325 and 336 CE Arius himself was whereabouts unknown. The letters of Constantine to him indicate that Constantine throught he may have been in Syria. He went underground. It was not safe anywhere else.

Wherever they were they were put to flight by the political and religious anathemas of the master heresiologist Cyril. Some escaped.

Quote:

Why did they disappear so easily from within the territories where the orthodox were located?

Which brings us back to the OP.

The word FLEEING is an essential term to understand.

It is used in the Nag Hammadi codices and is found on some papyri. The prayer for many was that they would be able to FLEE and not get caught. Dont forget, there were imperial laws controlling and restricting geographical and social mobility. Everyone was to stay put and continue whatever occupation they were raised in. (This assisted the job of tax collection).

It all sounds to me that Constantine set up a totalitarian state from which there was to be no escape. Joseph Stalin would have been absolutely green with envy; George Orwell would have stood breathless. And this thug kept crucifying people until the very end. So if one was fleeing and got caught he or she expected to be afflicted with the very worst of deaths (except sawing in twain).

imagine what Constantine could have done if he had today's satellite technology!

mountainman · 03-16-2012, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Between 325 and 336 CE Arius himself was whereabouts unknown. The letters of Constantine to him indicate that Constantine throught he may have been in Syria.

Constantine; 'Arius o'Arius? ....Where ever have you got yourself to Arius?
Arius? ...You hear me talking to you Arius? You better get your ass back here right now Arius so's that I can keel you.' :Cheeky:

:hysterical:

From the letter to Arius from Bullneck ....

Quote:

Originally Posted by CONSTANTINE in a rage about that damn Arius

He wrote books that collected and gathered terrible and lawless impieties
He wrote books that agitated tongues [Editor: Very popular books]
He wrote books which deceived and destroyed

He introduced a belief of unbelief.
He introduced a belief of unbelief that is completely new.

He accepted Jesus as a figment <<<================= What's a figment?

He called Jesus foreign
He did not adapt, he did not adapt (it was said twice) to God [Editor: the "new" orthodox God]
He was twice wretched

He reproached the church
He grieved the church
He wounded he church
He pained the church
He demoted Jesus
He dared to circumscribe Jesus
He undermined the (orthodox) truth
He undermined the (othodox) truth by various discourses
He detracted from Jesus who is indetractable
He questioned the presence of Jesus
He questioned the activity of Jesus
He questioned the all-pervading law of Jesus
He thought that there was a place outside of Jesus
He thought that there something else outside of Jesus
He denied the infiniteness of Jesus
He did not conclude that God is present in Christ
He had no faith in Christ
He did not follow the law that God's law is Christ
He had little piety toward Christ
He detracted from the uncorrupted intelligence of Jesus
He detracted from the belief in immortality of Jesus
He detracted from the uncorrupted intelligence of the Church
He was barred publicly from God’s church

It sounds like Bullneck did not appreciate Arius's books.

We might also say the opposite - that Arius did not appreciate Constantine's books

There was a Mexican stand-off for a decade (325-336 CE) until they found Arius.
(That is, if we are to believe Athanasius report on Arius's death. NB: Isaac Newton didn't)

mountainman · 03-16-2012, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by la70119

It all sounds to me that Constantine set up a totalitarian state from which there was to be no escape. Joseph Stalin would have been absolutely green with envy; George Orwell would have stood breathless. And this thug kept crucifying people until the very end. So if one was fleeing and got caught he or she expected to be afflicted with the very worst of deaths (except sawing in twain).

The ancient historical sources for the period 325-350 CE have been more or less swept clean by centuries of Vatican interception. The Nag Hammadi codices were discovered just AFTER the Vatican lost control of the possession and study of ancient historical evidence related to "Christian Origins" (e.g. DSS).

Quote:

Originally Posted by WIKI

Totalitarianism (or totalitarian rule) is a political system where the state recognizes no limits to its authority and strives to regulate every aspect of public and private life wherever feasible.[1] Totalitarian regimes stay in political power through an all-encompassing propaganda campaign, which is disseminated through the state-controlled mass media,

Such as the "Constantine Bible" .....

Quote:

... a single party that is often marked by political repression, personality cultism, control over the economy, regulation and restriction of speech, mass surveillance, and widespread use of terror.

The concept of totalitarianism was first developed in a positive sense in the 1920s by the Italian fascists.

Arnaldo Momigliano draws a parallel between the Roman Emperors like Constantine and Mussolini .....

Quote:

Originally Posted by AM

Mussolini became overnight the "man of providence",
and in such an inconvenient position he remained for many years.

.... some of the most original work on the Roman imperial cult
was done around the years 1929-1934 in the ambiguous atmosphere
of the revival of emperor worship in which it was difficult to
separate the adulation from political emotion, and political
emotion from religious or superstitious exitement

Quote:

imagine what Constantine could have done if he had today's satellite technology!

The codex was the equivalent high technology of the 4th century. We do not have to imagine what Constantine could have done with the codex. The Constantine Bible, with the "Shepherd of Hermas" axed, and a few other minor changes and translations, is still being read in a pulpit near you.

[child]

The emperor has no clothes.

[/child]

Within 25 years of the Council of Nicaea, we have the first attested evidence of Christians holding mass inquisitions against the pagans, and indulging in mass executions and torture. The pagans didn't stand much chance against the new and strange (See Big E. for this term) centralised monotheistic state religious cult.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

03-13-2012, 05:42 PM	#94
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	So all the sects were small enough to go underground or escape and did not encompass whole communities, towns, etc. in various parts of the empire? And if so, that might mean that the "orthodox" themselves as a group were also not very large, but just happened to have had some people in the right places at the right time?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.