Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 03-08-2012, 11:08 PM

By all accounts the pagans represented at least a 90% demographic majority over the Christians around the time of Nicaea. Where did they all disappear to? What does the scholarship have to say about this question?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

And where do mainstream scholars believe the pagans disappeared to without a trace?

Huon · 03-09-2012, 12:31 AM

There are two aspects of this problem :
1 - How did paganism disappear ?
2 - How did christianity appear, and what sort(s) of christianity ?

And there is another question :
3 - What did the new christianity absorb from local paganism ?

The problem is vast, and has only local solutions. And we are speaking only of the Roman empire, east and west. Roughly speaking, north of the Danube and east of the Rhine, paganism did not disappear during centuries. The Saxons, the Vikings were still pagans during the IXth century.

For the region I know well, Aquitaine (south-west of Garonne and north of Pyrénées) I have a book of 750 pages, by Michel Rouche (1976) which says what we know of the developement of this region between 418 and 781...

sotto voce · 03-09-2012, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

By all accounts the pagans represented at least a 90% demographic majority over the Christians

How is it known who was a Christian, if any?

Diogenes the Cynic · 03-09-2012, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

By all accounts the pagans represented at least a 90% demographic majority over the Christians

How is it known who was a Christian, if any?

Who said it was known?

Sheshbazzar · 03-09-2012, 04:34 AM

Constantine ruled that every man and his family report to be baptized, with severe restrictions and penalties for any who didn't. It wasn't yet quite a 'forced conversion', (one could still 'choose' not to be baptized) but it certainly was a coerced one.
Records were kept of whom was baptized and whom was not.
Soon enough those not were deprived of their homes, possessions, (all confiscated for the Church) and rights to engage in their professions, and most other civil rights. To not go along, and accept baptism as a Christian, was close to signing ones, and ones families death warrant.

sotto voce · 03-09-2012, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Constantine ruled that every man and his family report to be baptized, with severe restrictions and penalties for any who didn't. It wasn't yet quite a 'forced conversion', (one could still 'choose' not to be baptized) but it certainly was a coerced one.
Records were kept of whom was baptized and whom was not.
Soon enough those not were deprived of their homes, possessions, (all confiscated for the Church) and rights to engage in their professions, and most other civil rights. To not go along, and accept baptism as a Christian, was close to signing ones, and ones families death warrant.

Christians would not accept this, so they perished.

Diogenes the Cynic · 03-09-2012, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Constantine ruled that every man and his family report to be baptized, with severe restrictions and penalties for any who didn't. It wasn't yet quite a 'forced conversion', (one could still 'choose' not to be baptized) but it certainly was a coerced one.
Records were kept of whom was baptized and whom was not.
Soon enough those not were deprived of their homes, possessions, (all confiscated for the Church) and rights to engage in their professions, and most other civil rights. To not go along, and accept baptism as a Christian, was close to signing ones, and ones families death warrant.

Christians would not accept this, so they perished.

This makes no sense. Christians are the ones who inflicted it.

Huon · 03-09-2012, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Constantine ruled that every man and his family report to be baptized, with severe restrictions and penalties for any who didn't. It wasn't yet quite a 'forced conversion', (one could still 'choose' not to be baptized) but it certainly was a coerced one.
Records were kept of whom was baptized and whom was not.
Soon enough those not were deprived of their homes, possessions, (all confiscated for the Church) and rights to engage in their professions, and most other civil rights. To not go along, and accept baptism as a Christian, was close to signing ones, and ones families death warrant.

What are your sources ?

Possibly Constans I (337-350) ?

mountainman · 03-09-2012, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Where did the roman pagans go? They went to the bin of history—to borrow a Marxists saying--- they went to the same place where the overseers in slave plantations and monarchists in the USA etc went.

Which 4th century Marxists put the pagans in the sin bin of history?

How was this achieved? What was the history of this process?

sotto voce · 03-09-2012, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

By all accounts the pagans represented at least a 90% demographic majority over the Christians around the time of Nicaea. Where did they all disappear to?

They didn't disappear. They continued, just as before. Ok, they called themselves Christians, but they obviously were no more Christian than they were crystallised ginger. The phrase 'catholic church' is as sensible as 'harmless toxin'.

What disappeared was Christianity, until the Renaissance.

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03-09-2012, 12:31 AM	#2
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	There are two aspects of this problem : 1 - How did paganism disappear ? 2 - How did christianity appear, and what sort(s) of christianity ? And there is another question : 3 - What did the new christianity absorb from local paganism ? The problem is vast, and has only local solutions. And we are speaking only of the Roman empire, east and west. Roughly speaking, north of the Danube and east of the Rhine, paganism did not disappear during centuries. The Saxons, the Vikings were still pagans during the IXth century. For the region I know well, Aquitaine (south-west of Garonne and north of Pyrénées) I have a book of 750 pages, by Michel Rouche (1976) which says what we know of the developement of this region between 418 and 781...

03-09-2012, 04:34 AM	#5
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Constantine ruled that every man and his family report to be baptized, with severe restrictions and penalties for any who didn't. It wasn't yet quite a 'forced conversion', (one could still 'choose' not to be baptized) but it certainly was a coerced one. Records were kept of whom was baptized and whom was not. Soon enough those not were deprived of their homes, possessions, (all confiscated for the Church) and rights to engage in their professions, and most other civil rights. To not go along, and accept baptism as a Christian, was close to signing ones, and ones families death warrant.

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