Freethought & Rationalism Archive

gnosis92 · 10-24-2006, 09:57 AM

Sure seems that way to me

WishboneDawn · 10-24-2006, 10:13 AM

As much as I'd love a good gay relationship in the Bible I have to say I couldn't see it with David and Jonathon. It seems to have to be a modern, western reading that gets that out of the story. They were that close? They HAD to being sleeping together! There was an acceptence of close and loving platonic male relationships in the past (and still in other parts of the world) that we don't acknowledge today and that seems more likely. As for Ruth and Noami, that didn't occur to me. I'll have to reread it.

Anat · 10-24-2006, 10:25 AM

The David and Jonathan story may have been a work of propaganda intended to appease bitter Benjaminites. But the resulting picture is that of a dramatic love story.

Anat · 10-24-2006, 10:28 AM

Wishbone, here is an article that finds similarity in language use to the language used to describe marriage.

Clivedurdle · 10-24-2006, 10:33 AM

Face to faith

Lesbians and gays are the Bible's greatest lovers, says Trevor Dennis

Saturday October 14, 2006
The Guardian

The Bible is often appealed to on issues of sexuality, and those who use it to condemn homosexuality often turn to it in support of heterosexual marriage. Here, though, the Bible is against them, for nowhere do we find an exemplary marriage explored in depth; nobody to whom a parish priest could point a young couple in a marriage interview and say: "Be like them."
Almost everywhere in the Bible it is assumed that men are worth more than women; the book presumes that power and authority lie with men, including that over women, and asserts openly that men must exercise such authority.

Article continues

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...922480,00.html

Quote:
The Song of Songs, a series of erotic poems, composed almost certainly by women, celebrates the subversive, pre-marital sexual love of a pair of teenagers, where the girl has escaped the confines of the family - and the brothers who would board her up to protect her virginity - and has run into the arms of the boy she loves.
It contains some of the most beautiful love poetry ever written, but not quite what those who insist sex be confined within heterosexual marriage are looking for. The Bible also celebrates same-sex relationships, despite what those persuaded by a few verses in Leviticus and the epistles might believe.

Theodore W Jennings Jr describes the meeting of Jonathan with David in the first book of Samuel as "love at first sight" - at least on Jonathan's part. We are dealing, he says, "with no platonic friendship, but with all the elements of passionate romance". If we see Jonathan and David as two men passionately in love with one another - Jonathan from the first, and David once he has transferred his affections and loyalty from his wife, Michal, to Jonathan - then many details in the text, including the precise Hebrew terms it uses, which are drawn from erotic love poetry such as the Song of Songs, fall into place.

WishboneDawn · 10-24-2006, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anat

Wishbone, here is an article that finds similarity in language use to the language used to describe marriage.

Oh neat. We had discussed this in my bible course last year with some favouring a homosexual relationship and some against but I think when 1st years cover that THIS year I'll come armed with that article. It completely contradicts my thoughts on the issue.

Thanks Anat

Apikorus · 10-24-2006, 11:04 AM

Let's just say that the Book of Ruth might be called "Obed has Two Mommies".

seebs · 10-24-2006, 11:19 AM

I find the argument for David and Jonathan much more persuasive than the argument about Ruth and Naomi. There's a lot of overlap with the marriage language and practices there.

Laura D. · 10-24-2006, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnosis92

Sure seems that way to me

I also read David and Jonathon as having had an intimate, physical, loving relationshop.

God bless,

Laura

Clivedurdle · 10-24-2006, 12:32 PM

Quote:

the conceptual parallel of marriage between 1 Samuel 18:1-2 and Genesis 2:24, the intensity and type of language used in 1 Samuel 18:1-4 and subsequent covenant between Jonathon and David, and David's comparison of his love to that of women certainly leads me to the conclusion that their relationship could have been one of marriage.

OK, looks like a clear love story between two men, including sex.

But, when was it written? Is it not an Arthurian type legend, instead of Guinevere falling for Lancelot, what if Gawain had or even Arthur?

Do we have a Biblical erotic romantic literature genre - is there a Middle Eastern kama sutra around that did not get into the not so holy Bible?

If we compare Ruth and Naomi with other literature, could it be lesbian? What other male love stories are there from the surrounding cultures?

10-24-2006, 09:57 AM	#1
gnosis92 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: usa Posts: 3,103	Did David and Jonathan have a gay relationship? What about Ruth and Naomi? Sure seems that way to me

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10-24-2006, 10:13 AM	#2
WishboneDawn Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Nova Scotia, Canada Posts: 4,287	As much as I'd love a good gay relationship in the Bible I have to say I couldn't see it with David and Jonathon. It seems to have to be a modern, western reading that gets that out of the story. They were that close? They HAD to being sleeping together! There was an acceptence of close and loving platonic male relationships in the past (and still in other parts of the world) that we don't acknowledge today and that seems more likely. As for Ruth and Noami, that didn't occur to me. I'll have to reread it.

10-24-2006, 10:25 AM	#3
Anat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: home Posts: 3,715	The David and Jonathan story may have been a work of propaganda intended to appease bitter Benjaminites. But the resulting picture is that of a dramatic love story.

10-24-2006, 10:28 AM	#4
Anat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: home Posts: 3,715	Wishbone, here is an article that finds similarity in language use to the language used to describe marriage.

10-24-2006, 10:33 AM	#5
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Face to faith Lesbians and gays are the Bible's greatest lovers, says Trevor Dennis Saturday October 14, 2006 The Guardian The Bible is often appealed to on issues of sexuality, and those who use it to condemn homosexuality often turn to it in support of heterosexual marriage. Here, though, the Bible is against them, for nowhere do we find an exemplary marriage explored in depth; nobody to whom a parish priest could point a young couple in a marriage interview and say: "Be like them." Almost everywhere in the Bible it is assumed that men are worth more than women; the book presumes that power and authority lie with men, including that over women, and asserts openly that men must exercise such authority. Article continues http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...922480,00.html Quote: The Song of Songs, a series of erotic poems, composed almost certainly by women, celebrates the subversive, pre-marital sexual love of a pair of teenagers, where the girl has escaped the confines of the family - and the brothers who would board her up to protect her virginity - and has run into the arms of the boy she loves. It contains some of the most beautiful love poetry ever written, but not quite what those who insist sex be confined within heterosexual marriage are looking for. The Bible also celebrates same-sex relationships, despite what those persuaded by a few verses in Leviticus and the epistles might believe. Theodore W Jennings Jr describes the meeting of Jonathan with David in the first book of Samuel as "love at first sight" - at least on Jonathan's part. We are dealing, he says, "with no platonic friendship, but with all the elements of passionate romance". If we see Jonathan and David as two men passionately in love with one another - Jonathan from the first, and David once he has transferred his affections and loyalty from his wife, Michal, to Jonathan - then many details in the text, including the precise Hebrew terms it uses, which are drawn from erotic love poetry such as the Song of Songs, fall into place.

10-24-2006, 11:04 AM	#7
Apikorus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,396	Let's just say that the Book of Ruth might be called "Obed has Two Mommies".

10-24-2006, 11:19 AM	#8
seebs Contributor Join Date: May 2002 Location: Saint Paul, MN Posts: 24,524	I find the argument for David and Jonathan much more persuasive than the argument about Ruth and Naomi. There's a lot of overlap with the marriage language and practices there.

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