Roland

When these "wonderful people" stop ponying up money to fund anti-gay marriage initiatives in this country, using the Bible as their primary source of reference, then I'll consider it wrong to try and point out the idiocy of running your life - and worse, someone else's - by a book that is demonstrably flawed and even idiotic at times. Sorry if that sounds bitter, but as the Bible itself says "those who live by the sword shall die by the sword." To many in this world who have been crushed under its yoke, fundamentalist Christianity is anything but a benign force in the world.

Iskander

I was participating in the survey on whether they should continue to use the bible or diversify.

I voted for diversification, because as atheists they should be concerned about other evil gods.

The problem is that many atheists are as irrational and ignorant as the worst fundy and in addition they are just as boring and repetitive, sadly they are also full of hate,

They are obsessed with religion with the zeal of missionaries

I was hoping to see them writing in a positive manner about the virtues of atheism instead behaving like leeches or cultural parasites without independent life

I was happy to point out that their civilization had produced the little red book, which must be a source of delight for them and invited them to share their atheistic faith with us.

Finally I mentioned an early masterpiece of atheistic eloquence in the singing of the Frogs cleverly written in the eternal language used by those who have nothing to say.

Joan of Bark

I used to be a Christian (Anglican, to be precise) and deconversion didn't hurt much more than finding out there is no Santa Claus. We all have to grow up eventually, to discover that the world isn't perfect, and that the best way to make positive changes is to stare the truth in the face. I don't find the thought of oblivion after life to be the least bit depressing; in fact, it makes me appreciate life all the more. I'm not wasting time waiting for a perfect afterlife, but enjoying my imperfect current life. If you think life is "utterly meaningless" then you need to re-examine your life.

Julian

Why do I want to deconvert christians? Simple: They vote. The fewer christians we have the more likely it is that we will still have legal and safe abortion, no school prayer, no 10 commandments smeared all over courthouses, and on and on...

Besides, if you see a hurt animal, it won't let you help it. It hurts the animal and it will resist. Converting christians is much the same thing. It may hurt for a while and they won't like it, but in the long run it is for their own good. I am just trying to help them. Once they have gotten through the pain they will feel much better and will be thankful that it happened. Just ask some of the people here who used to be believers.

Julian

Chris Weimer

Assuredly, there are atheists who combat Islam as well.

What does this have to do with anything?

All atheism entails is no god belief. That is it. You can stop with the strawman now.

Little correction: that's communists, not "atheists". Though some communists may be atheists, not all atheists are communists. Feel free to attack communists, but BC&H is not the place to do it.

*sigh* Iskander, and I was hoping you would have had something useful to say here. Instead we get beaten strawmen and ad homines. Perhaps I should lower my standards some.

Phlox Pyros

Ha...I suppose you are correct.

Sure.

"I have never denied the existence of another world, nor the immortality of the soul."
.....
"What I deny is the immortality of pain, the eternity of torture."

This is irrational though perfectly within one's right to believe on faith.

What would be more rational is to say that one can't reasonably deny the existence of another world, the immortality of the soul, the immortality of pain, or an eternity of torture... What is happening, whether intentional or not, is that one is making an emotional, "feel-good" appeal.

There are other examples, but as well as other texts are analyzed here, I feel that they should be found easily enough by anyone unbiased enough to look for and find them.

Phlox Pyros

LOL! I knew my moniker might easily yield itself to this, but I did wonder how long it would take someone to resort to such a tactic!

But, Vorkosigan, at least by your tone and apparent desire to "deconvert" people and bring them around to your own beliefs, it seems to me that you are also forming a hateful and authoritarian belief. Granted it may be in the seedling stage, but I do not see such hate-filled rhetoric against religion as being much different that the very authorities you mention.

When in total control, I would agree, but I would emphasize the "any other system of authority" because I believe that any group has the potential to shut out other beliefs. It sounds to me from your comments that you would put in place an equally controlling system of belief that would seek to control or "deconvert" Christians or people of religion. That is certainly no better.

I understand that you perceive this to be my inability, but I believe that you fail to recognize that you are acting in exactly the same manner as a Christian fundamentalist, only in reverse. From your comments, it seems that you would seek to strongly proselytize and "deconvert" people of reglion, especially Christians, just as they seek to strongly proselytize to and "convert" you. Some of them are seeking a purely Christian nation, just as you seem to be unfairly comparing them with Nazism and apparently desiring to install your own form of anti-Christian government. You appear to me to be using strong, hate-filled language against Christians and theists, just as the fundamentalists likely do to you. All in all, I think you are not seeing your own inability to recognize that you are doing exactly what you do not like (somehow reminds one of the negative form of the "golden rule" that most cultures adopt).

I think this would be a misunderstanding of Christianity. I do not believe all (or even most) Christians would "hate" you, though you will definitely notice the vocal minority who do.

John 15:17-21 17 "This I command you, that you love one another. 18 "If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. 19 "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you. 20 "Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 "But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know the One who sent Me.

Though I do not see a problem with Christians in Government as everyone deserves their representatives, but if they are bible reading and believing Christians then they will know from many verses in the New Testament that this world is not their own and that "they are not of this world".

It seems that if they become inimical to your personal idea of the democratic practice, that is the problem. It also seems as if you want to "deconvert" the masses so that they see things your way. I hate to word it this way, but are you really so blind as not to see that you are doing the very things you hate?

Read that again...and again. You only love those who love you, but you are tolerant. Again, take this in context with many of your other comments about "deconversion" and hating. I believe you may be reflexively loving, but I do not believe you are any more tolerant than the fundamentalist Christians you say you hate.

Doug Shaver

If the question is "Does it work?" a survey of whether people think it works won't give you much of an answer.

I didn't vote because my response -- "It depends" -- was not included.

I know a lot of former believers who were deconverted by reading the Bible. I also know a lot of current believers who are thoroughly familiar with everything in it.

Phlox Pyros

Here again, is the replacement crutch many use. It simply replaces the Christians' "holier than thou" with one's own, new "more mature than thou". These are simply crutches, usually unintentionally used, that bolster our own beliefs while making the opposers' seem somehow inferior to us.

What does any of your life matter after you die? What about all those "positive changes"? Did you help someone? Did they eventually die too? All memory of any "positive changes" is gone, and nothing you did matters.

This, to me, is hell. Why people would choose to have faith that this is what will happen to them after death is beyond me.

Phlox Pyros

Is it "bad" for them to feel the same way about you? Because you vote?

This is, yet again, that replacement crutch used to prop up one's own beliefs, "I am better...more intelligent..etc". Fundamenalist Christians, as you well know, feel the same about you.