Joan of Bark

I don't know if anyone has started a thread like this before, but here goes:

I am a firm believer in using the Bible to deconvert Christians. It is my feeling that if all Christians actually READ the Bible (and not just the parts they get spoon fed on Sunday morning), many of them would either chuck Christianity completely or at least allow a germ of doubt to enter their consciousness'. Since BC&H is filled with people who HAVE read the 'Good Book', I think a survey is in order to help settle the question:

Phlox Pyros

No. True believers believe by faith. Head knowledge probably won't do it. It's more about emotions and exerience. Just my humble opinion.

David B

Lots of the deconverts here cite reading the bible as among their prime reasons for losing faith.

People are varied - it can't do any harm to see if this approach works with each individual.Though I don't see it working with all.

David B

jjramsey

That depends. For some Christians, emotions and experience are what happens to other Christians, not themselves. Also, for some Christians, emotions are part of the motivation for embracing Christianity, but intellectual reasons are still needed to seal the deal.

A few caveats, though.

• Don't expect that Christians have only been spoon-fed parts of the Bible at Sunday service. Sometimes this is true; sometimes this is not.
• Don't expect all the Bible readers to be shocked at the brutality in it. Often it is written off as God accommodating imperfect people in a bygone era. This is especially true for Christians who have already read through the Bible.
• NEVER misconstrue the Bible to invent problems that aren't there. This will segue right into the stereotype that atheists are desperate for reasons to deny God and will twist the facts to do so. Unfortunately, such misconstrual is far too common. To quote Gerald LaRue, "One criticism I have with freethought publications in the field of religion is that so often they are wrong; they are inaccurate."

mens_sana

This angle of approach can also be helpful from time to time ...

Often a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other parts of the world, about the motions and orbits of the stars and even their sizes and distances . . . and this knowledge he holds with certainty from reason and experience. It is thus offensive and disgraceful for an unbeliever to hear a Christian talk nonsense about such things, claiming that what he is saying is based in Scripture. We should do all that we can to avoid such an embarrassing situation, lest the unbeliever see only ignorance in the Christian and laugh to scorn.

St. Augustine, "De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim" (The Literal Meaning of Genesis)

Negasta

"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
Isaac Asimov

Christians like to pick cherries, just remember that the best fruit grows in well fertilized soil (i.e. where there's a lot of shit), and then to point that out to them.

LoneWolf

I think using the Bible is the BEST way to deconvert a Christian. First, remember he isn't going to deconvert right in front of your eyes. Your job is to plant the seeds of reason and hope they take. I used to be a fundie and reading the Bible is what deconverted me.

jjramsey is absolutely right, do not FOCUS on the attrocities of the Bible. It is easy to dismiss these for a Christian because he will just think God had a reason that we mere mortals can't see. What you do is to point out contradictions in the Bible. This verse says God did X and but this verse says God did Y. If the Bible is the word of God then there can be no contradictions. So show them there ARE contradictions. Skeptics Annotated Bible has hundereds of examples.

Also, Christians claim that prophecy in the Bible is proof of it's divine origin. So go through and pick apart the prophecies. While some are just circular reasoning others can be proven to be out and out wrong. SAB to the rescue again!

This is a timely thread for me. I am currently trying to distill all the best arguments against Christianity using only the Bible. I had to read the ENTIRE Bible in order to deconvert myself. My end goal is to have well thought out arguments committed to memory using a myriad of different verses and memorize those verse numbers.

That way the next time a Christian asks me why I am not a Christian my respone will be "Hand me your Bible and I will show you." Something tells me that response will take most Christians COMPLETELY off guard.

While I think this is the BEST method I do realize there are some Christians out there who are COMPLETELY beyond reason. Those types will ignore even the best argument. These are the types that even if they went back in time and saw for themselves that Jesus didn't rise from the dead they would just assume Satan was playing a trick on their eyes. I really have no way of dealing with those types other than to not deal with them at all.

Phlox Pyros

I agree, to a point. I think that Christians do back up their beliefs with some knowledge and reason. However, I still believe that Christians are Christians because of their faith and not their knowledge.

I have never known of a Christian who became a Christian because they were convinced by historical proofs of Christianity. I have known of many Christians who became Christians because of an emotional experience (sometimes with knowledge and reason but still largely emotional).

Here is an experience I had once that taught me a lot. A long time ago in a "Married's" Sunday School, we were asked to "witness" to each other. I, being the head knowledge and reasonable type, proceeded to explain the "plan of salvation" to the group....we're all sinners, Jesus died as a sacrifice for our sins, if we accept his gift and believe in him, then we will have eternal life in heaven. I thought, there ya go, I can witness!

Next, a wonderful gentleman from the Congo in Africa spoke. He talked passionately about his belief in the efficacy of prayer and of believing in God. At the end of our little "play session", we took a vote on who had the best witnessing approach.

Of course, I thought I'd win, hands down. After all, I had coherently presented the plan of salvation.

To my great bewilderment, the gentleman from the Congo "won" our little contest. Why, I wondered! He didn't even present how to become a Christian?

Now I understand.... Head knowledge is not what people are looking for. They are looking for passion, compassion, reassurance, family, sincerity, and love. They are looking for emotion (with a small side helping of knowledge and reason to keep things intact).

Many Christians have read the Bible well, so I do not believe that it can destroy Christianity. What I think destroys Christianity is hypocritical behavior and the inability of the angered onlooker to realize that what they are witnessing is the human behavior of people who know they're not perfect just because they desire to be Christians.

Anyways, that's just my two cents. Take it for what it's worth to you.

Joan of Bark

I think LoneWolf has presented the best arguments so far. It is the approach I am taking. When a Christian tells me he believes in the morality of the Bible, I try to quote a passage (best if it is attributed to Jesus) that I know he/she will not agree with. This seems to at least throw the believer off guard.

I also think that most Christians assume that a skeptic has not read the Bible. Proving that you have helps to plant the seeds of doubt in their minds.

Phlox Pyros

Here's my question.... Why do you want to deconvert Christians?

Most that I have known in life have been wonderful people. I've seen people whose Christian faith has been crushed, and I've seen them hurt greatly. Why would you want to do that to anyone? Why would you want to take away the "hope" that they have? I find that as cruel as the misguided Christians who tell everyone they're going straight to hell (as if they, themselves have never done anything wrong). I just don't understand wanting to hurt someone in either of these ways....it's sad.