MJGraham

I'm no scholar so please forgive me if I'm mistaken but when I read the old and new testaments, I rarely come across the word faith and interpret it as belief in what cannot be seen/proven. Rather it seems to me that faith as it used in the bible refers more often to loyalty, servitude, and worship. There are exceptions (Doubting Thomas springs to mind).

Am I reading the bible incorrectly when I think that the Jewish and Christian call to faith is not supposed to be one that is atheistic towards other gods. Rather it is a call to side with the deity that their priesthood thought of as the most powerful amongst an array of available gods. Very much like Zoroastrianism.

Other questions that concern me relating to this topic...

Did Ancient Hebrew, Greek, or Aramaic have different words for different kind of faith which later became bundled together into one word which we later translated into faith which only has a singular meaning?

Were stories like Doubting Thomas added in much later for a generation that had a new understanding and different understanding of faith?

Would early Christians and Jews been closer to pagans in the way the thought about religion and practiced it than their modern counterparts?

gstafleu

The concept of faith is a rather recent one. In the olden days people just knew the gods/spirits/whatever existed, just as they knew the plants grew and the sun rose every day (there were exceptions of course, e.g. (some) Greek philosophers).

As of the scientific revolution we now have a distinction between things we "really know," i.e. knowledge acquired by the scientific method, and things we take on "faith," i.e. knowledge people believe to be true but which cannot be acquired scientifically. But that distinction did not exist before, roughly, the renaissance (although Roger might want to say something about the misquote ascribed to Tertullian: Credo quia absurdum).

So don't project our modern idea of "faith" back into antiquity, that is just misleading.

Gerard Stafleu

MJGraham

I guess the option of not believing would have been unavailable to most people in antiquity and unintelligible to every one else. Which would certainly give a new spin on Jobs faith being tested. It wasn't his belief in God that was at stake. It was his loyalty to god that was being tested.

Toto

"Faith" in modern American is often a euphemism for "religion."

But there is Paul's definition - "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

MJGraham

Would Paul's definition of faith preclude a Christian from having faith in the existence of Horus or Artemis?

aa5874

I don't think Job was written to really show that Job was tested, it was written to test the reader. The message to the reader is to be loyal to, or have faith in God no matter what.

Petergdi

That definition is from Hebrews. I don't think Hebrews is from Paul.

Paul seems to use faith to mean trust in God to an extent that results in complete submission to God. Faith in God is the same thing as being a slave to righteousness. Faith into Jesus Christ is the same thing as being a slave of Christ Jesus. Calling Jesus "Lord," if it is to be more than empty words, means identifying yourself as a slave of Christ.

I'm agnostic as far as the existence of Horus or Artemis. If I knew precisely what Horus or Artemis were and what it would mean to say they exist then I could have an opinion on the matter. All I can say is that I do not believe that they are gods to be worshipped.

There seems to be some idea that a monotheist must be sure of the non existance of other gods. I think this is silly. Monotheism does not require me to believe that the Showa emperor started to exist in August 1945 when he stopped being a god. Being a monotheist does not require me to think that the emperor Domitian never existed. Being a monotheist does not require me to say that money does not exist even though money is plainly worshipped as a god by very many people. If I knew who Horus was I might say "Of course Horus exists, but I've got no intention of worshipping him."

You might try looking at 1 Corinthians 8:

(4) Hence as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that "no idol in the world really exists," and that "there is no God but one." (5) Indeed, even though there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth -- as in fact there are many gods and many lords -- (6) Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist." (NRSV 1 Cor 8 4-6)

Peter.

aa5874

These passages are all faith-based, where truth is irrelevant.

Look at (4)....we know that "no idol in the world really exists", and "that there is no God but one".

The author really does not know how many Gods exist.
He has faith.
Truth is irrelevant.

Helpmabob

Some of these maybe pertain more to our love for God: And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. [1 Corinthians 13:13] Your idea of faith may be of some sort of hope, but faith is something material in itself.There is a wide selection of false gods in the Old Testament. None of them did any good, no matter how strong the people’s beliefs. It demonstrates that belief differs from faith in a fundamental aspect. A belief is one thing; a saving faith is quite another and can only be in a saviour God.No, God knew from the start that Christians would face doubts and persecution. It is consistent with the rest of scripture.Doubtful. Take Stephen: he wasn’t prepared to compromise his faith in God to appease man and he was murdered for his trouble. He was ‘full of faith’ and this showed in the forgiveness of his murderers. His face shone like an angel, and as he died, he had a vision of Christ in heaven.

neilgodfrey

Check the bible dictionaries for the difference between "faith" and "faithfulness". Old Testament narratives often refer to faithfulness/loyalty to the god-father -- keeping the faith under pain of death was a matter of loyalty to the brigand/king/god who protected you in exchange for your "devotion" or "loyalty" or regular "freewill offerings".

Neil