Freethought & Rationalism Archive

dog-on · 07-03-2008, 03:04 AM

The original Christian god was thought superior to the OT god, the OT god being the demiurge and the Christian god being the unknown good god, made known through his word, the Christ.

Later confusion and forgery created the inconsistant mess, known today as, Christianity.

J-D · 07-03-2008, 04:30 AM

The Skeptics' Annotated Bible indexes 'Cruelty and Violence', 'Injustice', and 'Intolerance' in the New Testament as well as the Old Testament.

And, since it's been mentioned, and to be fair, it also indexes 'Good Stuff' in both.

J-D · 07-03-2008, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cesc

Quote:

Originally Posted by RILEY_STONE

I don't see that. For one thing, I'm not sure how you could say that the Bible (the Hebrew bible combined with the Greek New Testament) even has one encompassing themes. However, one significant theme of the New Testament seems to be that every human being is a sinner who deserves to be eternally tormented. I just don't see the love or the peace in a message that begins that way.

It would be like a man saying to his wife: "You're unspeakably flawed and because of that, you deserve to be beaten and tortured on a daily basis. However, because I am good, and because you have done x, y, and z, I am going to treat you well (eventually)."

It's the "you're unspeakably flawed and because of that, you deserve to be beaten and tortured" part that negates any other positive messages that may be there.

Well, I didnt say that the entire Bible has one encompassing theme, only Christianity (NT). But still it was a bad choice of words on my behalf. I agree with you that the idea of all of us being bad bad sinners is sick. Nobody's gonna tell me I was born a sinner worthy of burning in hell!

What I meant was the whole "eye for eye vs. turn the other cheek" reform. "Love your neighbor", "forgive them for they know not what they do" and we are all Gods people incl. slaves and outcasts, and that sort of stuff.

This is not a contrast between the Old Testament and the New Testament. Both kinds of message can be found in both. For example, 'love your neighbour' in the New Testament is a direct quote from the Old Testament.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cesc

If I were a Christian thats what I would choose to focus on, and most of the Christians I've met do. But I live in Denmark and we dont really have fundies, though Xtianity is a little bit on the rise now (prolly as a result of the anti-muslim sentiment brewing under the surface, it seems to me).

But if one wants to be rational and academic about it, sure, there are many things in Christianity that are absolutely horrible such as the Christian concept of hell, as has been pointed out. But believers do not want to be rational and academic about it, hence "believers"

Roland also points out the human sacrifice element. In order that we be saved, someone else has to suffer horribly to his death!

ryanm · 07-04-2008, 09:12 AM

Question:

I know we are discussing the Christian dismissal of the OT, but I'm curious if anyone here knows why the Jews themselves no longer follow the harsher laws found in the Torah. Unless I'm utterly ignorant of foreign affairs, I don't think they're routinely stoning their children... do they have a good reason for this?

DrZoidberg · 07-04-2008, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bopot

When I bring up the violence and cruelty of the OT and its laws, Christians tend to dismiss it as merely contextual. They'll say that Christianity is about peace and love and that I should read what Jesus said if I want to understand Christianity.

My response has typically been to quote Jesus from Matthew 5:17: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

Having never read the Bible, I'm afraid that's where I run out of ammo. Does anyone have any other suggestions? I'm perfectly happy to follow their lead and move on to NT criticism (suggestions welcome there, too), but I can't let them get away with dismissing the bulk of their holy book so easily.

Marcionites rejected the old testament and was therefore branded as heretics by the Catholic church. They edited the Bible. So it doesn't really matter if there's any paragraphs in the NT about it. It's implied if we know our history. It was one of the largest conflicts of the early Christians and the Christians who dismissed the OT lost in a major way.

Toto · 07-04-2008, 09:17 AM

Those harsher laws have never been followed strictly AFAIK. They were just there to put a scare into people. Jews rely on their tradition and interpretation that gets around most of the weirder laws.

chrisengland · 07-04-2008, 09:42 AM

Hello
I havn't read all the reply's so I apologise if this has already been said.
Aparently the Church(I think the Catholic at least) has said that the Old Testament had three kinds of laws' ceremonial' civil and moral.
They say Christians are required to follw the moral laws still' some of which were expanded by Jesus.
They say the civil and cerimonial no longer need to be kept.
I,ve heard there has been some debate about The Old Testament Laws' possibly whether thay are moral' civil or ceremonial.
The person who broke down the laws was a Catholic I think' whether Protestants and other denominations have slightly different reasons for not keeping them I don't know.
Some do keep more of the Old Testament rules like the sabbath for example.
Chris

storytime · 07-04-2008, 06:35 PM

Well, Christians always say people cannot keep the laws and all people are siners. However, Jesus said those who didn't keep the laws could not be his disciples. Christians then turn to "grace" as excusing their sin but then Jesus said once people were made aware of their sins then they had no more excuse (go and sin no more). So it seems that ignorance is one thing under grace where no punishment is applied and forgiveness mandated, as compared to intentional sin where judgment applies to the specific offense. At least that's the way I'm understanding Jesus and his Judaism.

Toto · 07-05-2008, 10:38 AM

Chili posts split off here

Sheshbazzar · 07-05-2008, 12:00 PM

"Christians" although being the popular well-known term for those who accept the "new" testament, is somewhat of a misnomer, as it actually only properly identifies that Hellenized faction of the early Believers that used "political means" to consolidate their power and forcefully impose their particular version and interpretation of the Faith. In doing so they employed the secular powers and the combined might of the Roman Legions to hunt down, and to mercilessly slaughter anyone who would not conform to their every decree, or deviated in the least detail from the "orthodox" party line.

Evidence indicates that the early Judean NT "Believers", while they accepted the Galilean as being the long promised "Messiah", yet continued in a faithful observance of all aspects of The Laws of Moses that were not found in direct conflict with their new convictions. In other words, the Laws of Sabbath, Holy Days and Festival's along with the various "Kosher" observances were kept.
The first test of their new Faith came when the Jerusalem Priesthood made the "Decision" strictly forbidding their engaging in any further "preaching or teaching -"in the Name" of their Messiah, a commandment that they refused to respect, so rejecting submitting to the traditional priestly "authority" that was enshrined in Deut. 17:8-13.
At this point, the mentality entered into some, that having violated this commandment of Moses, it was now pointless to continue in any other "observances" of The Law, but of course not completely, but this provided the excuse and the opportunity to "cherry pick" on personal whim what from The Law's to respect and to keep, or to disrespect and discard. And so it has been every since.
But there were, and are those "New Testament" Messianic Believers (and not necessarily accepting of the moniker "Christian") who none the less continued in a closer, thoughtful, observance and adherence to the requirements of The Law, doing their best to "Keep the Commandments" and "The Testimony" (as much of it as can be "kept" at this late date)
These are such NT Believers as did and yet do observe the Sabbaths and Festivals, and keep the "kosher" food and clothing observances.
"Orthodox Christianity" disparagingly refers to all such as being "legalists", while ignoring that most such Believers DO accept the doctrine of "Justification by FAITH, apart from the works of The Law", but still continue in the observances because of what can be learned about Scripture, and about YHWHs plan through participation, exercise, and fellowship.
In summary, although "Christians" (the predominating political faction of NT believers) may dismiss the OT, there are many NT Believers who dissent from that dismissal.

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07-03-2008, 03:04 AM	#31
dog-on Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 3,397	The original Christian god was thought superior to the OT god, the OT god being the demiurge and the Christian god being the unknown good god, made known through his word, the Christ. Later confusion and forgery created the inconsistant mess, known today as, Christianity.

07-03-2008, 04:30 AM	#32
J-D Moderator - General Religious Discussions Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New South Wales Posts: 27,330	The Skeptics' Annotated Bible indexes 'Cruelty and Violence', 'Injustice', and 'Intolerance' in the New Testament as well as the Old Testament. And, since it's been mentioned, and to be fair, it also indexes 'Good Stuff' in both.

07-04-2008, 09:12 AM	#34
ryanm Junior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: CT Posts: 12	Question: I know we are discussing the Christian dismissal of the OT, but I'm curious if anyone here knows why the Jews themselves no longer follow the harsher laws found in the Torah. Unless I'm utterly ignorant of foreign affairs, I don't think they're routinely stoning their children... do they have a good reason for this?

07-04-2008, 09:17 AM	#36
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Those harsher laws have never been followed strictly AFAIK. They were just there to put a scare into people. Jews rely on their tradition and interpretation that gets around most of the weirder laws.

07-04-2008, 09:42 AM	#37
chrisengland Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Bristol' England Posts: 2,678	Hello I havn't read all the reply's so I apologise if this has already been said. Aparently the Church(I think the Catholic at least) has said that the Old Testament had three kinds of laws' ceremonial' civil and moral. They say Christians are required to follw the moral laws still' some of which were expanded by Jesus. They say the civil and cerimonial no longer need to be kept. I,ve heard there has been some debate about The Old Testament Laws' possibly whether thay are moral' civil or ceremonial. The person who broke down the laws was a Catholic I think' whether Protestants and other denominations have slightly different reasons for not keeping them I don't know. Some do keep more of the Old Testament rules like the sabbath for example. Chris

07-04-2008, 06:35 PM	#38
storytime Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: USA Posts: 2,608	Well, Christians always say people cannot keep the laws and all people are siners. However, Jesus said those who didn't keep the laws could not be his disciples. Christians then turn to "grace" as excusing their sin but then Jesus said once people were made aware of their sins then they had no more excuse (go and sin no more). So it seems that ignorance is one thing under grace where no punishment is applied and forgiveness mandated, as compared to intentional sin where judgment applies to the specific offense. At least that's the way I'm understanding Jesus and his Judaism.

07-05-2008, 10:38 AM	#39
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Chili posts split off here

07-05-2008, 12:00 PM	#40
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	"Christians" although being the popular well-known term for those who accept the "new" testament, is somewhat of a misnomer, as it actually only properly identifies that Hellenized faction of the early Believers that used "political means" to consolidate their power and forcefully impose their particular version and interpretation of the Faith. In doing so they employed the secular powers and the combined might of the Roman Legions to hunt down, and to mercilessly slaughter anyone who would not conform to their every decree, or deviated in the least detail from the "orthodox" party line. Evidence indicates that the early Judean NT "Believers", while they accepted the Galilean as being the long promised "Messiah", yet continued in a faithful observance of all aspects of The Laws of Moses that were not found in direct conflict with their new convictions. In other words, the Laws of Sabbath, Holy Days and Festival's along with the various "Kosher" observances were kept. The first test of their new Faith came when the Jerusalem Priesthood made the "Decision" strictly forbidding their engaging in any further "preaching or teaching -"in the Name" of their Messiah, a commandment that they refused to respect, so rejecting submitting to the traditional priestly "authority" that was enshrined in Deut. 17:8-13. At this point, the mentality entered into some, that having violated this commandment of Moses, it was now pointless to continue in any other "observances" of The Law, but of course not completely, but this provided the excuse and the opportunity to "cherry pick" on personal whim what from The Law's to respect and to keep, or to disrespect and discard. And so it has been every since. But there were, and are those "New Testament" Messianic Believers (and not necessarily accepting of the moniker "Christian") who none the less continued in a closer, thoughtful, observance and adherence to the requirements of The Law, doing their best to "Keep the Commandments" and "The Testimony" (as much of it as can be "kept" at this late date) These are such NT Believers as did and yet do observe the Sabbaths and Festivals, and keep the "kosher" food and clothing observances. "Orthodox Christianity" disparagingly refers to all such as being "legalists", while ignoring that most such Believers DO accept the doctrine of "Justification by FAITH, apart from the works of The Law", but still continue in the observances because of what can be learned about Scripture, and about YHWHs plan through participation, exercise, and fellowship. In summary, although "Christians" (the predominating political faction of NT believers) may dismiss the OT, there are many NT Believers who dissent from that dismissal.

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