bopot

When I bring up the violence and cruelty of the OT and its laws, Christians tend to dismiss it as merely contextual. They'll say that Christianity is about peace and love and that I should read what Jesus said if I want to understand Christianity.

My response has typically been to quote Jesus from Matthew 5:17: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

Having never read the Bible, I'm afraid that's where I run out of ammo. Does anyone have any other suggestions? I'm perfectly happy to follow their lead and move on to NT criticism (suggestions welcome there, too), but I can't let them get away with dismissing the bulk of their holy book so easily.

arnoldo

Try reading the Skeptic's Annotated Bible and you'll find most of the standard arguments concerning the so called biblegod's atrocities in the OT.

bopot

Yes! How could I have forgotten it? I've quoted the annotated Koran here several times, heh. Thanks for the reminder.

Sheshbazzar

The "about peace and love" line conveniently came to the fore only after they had established their political and religious domination through campaigns of hatred and murder.
"If we had lived in the days of our fathers, -we- would not have done according to -their- works".... yeah, riiiiiight,
pardon me while I puke.

Cesc

I think definately that Christianity is mainly about peace and love, at least the encompassing theme. I personally think its hard to argue against that. And that its one of the things about Christianity that has made it such a hit from the get-go. What I consider the stoic, humanistic elements of it. In relative stark contrast to the more impersonal "old religions" of the time, incl. "Judaism". Afterall, it is a "new" covenant, or "testament". But with all the contradictions in the NT one can pick and choose what one likes the most. Remember, faith is not based on rationality.

From a Christian viewpoint I'd argue that the reason God is so angry and bitter in the OT and so nice and agreeable in the NT is because He's finally gotten laid!

mountainman

Constantine hijacked the greek LXX for his own personal ends shortly after he became Pontifex Maximus for the purposes of forging an ancient authenticity for his soon-to-be-published new testament. Any intended references to any chronology earlier than the year 312 CE are fraudulent misprepresentations of ancient history. Unlike christian "writers of history" from early centuries C14 dating does not defraud.

Best wishes,


Pete

Riley Stone

I don't see that. For one thing, I'm not sure how you could say that the Bible (the Hebrew bible combined with the Greek New Testament) even has one encompassing themes. However, one significant theme of the New Testament seems to be that every human being is a sinner who deserves to be eternally tormented. I just don't see the love or the peace in a message that begins that way.

It would be like a man saying to his wife: "You're unspeakably flawed and because of that, you deserve to be beaten and tortured on a daily basis. However, because I am good, and because you have done x, y, and z, I am going to treat you well (eventually)."

It's the "you're unspeakably flawed and because of that, you deserve to be beaten and tortured" part that negates any other positive messages that may be there.

Toto

Now why would arnoldo be recommending the Skeptics Annotated Bible?

In general, if Christians want to think that their religion is all about peace and love, why would you want to discourage them?

Similarly, if Muslims think that they are a religion of peace, that should be encouraged.

Sure, you can quote scripture or the Qur'an that shows that they are wrong, but they're not going to accept that. Their religion is based on reading their scriptures in a certain way that you might not think is logical, but you wouldn't want to convince them that their religion is actually based on violence and then have them go out and kill someone, would you? :huh:

mountainman

You people are aware of course that the person who first widely published the christian bible, with the new and the old bound together, has the following track record:

makerowner

There's plenty of ammo in the NT as well. The whole book of Revelation for starters. Lots of nice stuff about sinners having to drink blood and locusts stinging people for months on end. There's also Matthew 10:34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword."