Magus55

Sin separates us from God and makes him confusing. We tune God out and don't listen to Him. We end up coming to our own conclusions that we like based on our ideals, instead of God's truth. As a result, we get denominations and different interpretations.

And what would you require God to do to make you believe? If God made it undeniable that He existed, who in their right mind would ever reject Him out of their own choosing? No one is dumb enough to choose Hell when they know about it for a fact. In which case, we wouldn't be choosing to follow God because we trust Him without solid proof, or because we love Him for his sacrifice to save us. In which case, where is the value in fellowship with God?

If God was proven 100% as fact, the only reason most people would follow Him would be to avoid Hell, and in which case you are by passing your free will because when faced with the fact of Heaven or the fact of Hell, no one would choose Hell. God doesn't want people in Heaven who don't want to be there. If you don't care about God, why should you be allowed in Heaven? Heaven is God's kingdom - its a privilege to be allowed into paradise.

Magus55

From your perspective maybe not. But when compared to the sovereign ruler of the universe, your opinion on the matter is pretty meaningless. You can't change it. God makes the rules, God is in charge. You abide by His rules, or you face the consequences. Clicking your heels together three times and saying, "God doesn't exist", "God doesn't exist", won't make Him go away.

User

Clicking your heels three times and insisting that a deity exists won't make said deity any realer.

Magus55

I didn't do that. God made himself very real too me. God made His existence more real than science could ever do. I need no scientific evidence or data to prove my case, God already did it.

Zucco

The value is we would be worshipping an entity that deals with us honestly, and doesn't play games that allow billions to be misled and cast into eternal torment. Tell me what is wrong with a god that makes his message perfectly clear to every human being? It is ridiculous to say that a god who makes us play hide and seek is preferable to a god who clearly conveys his message (especially when he remains hidden for thousands of years).

Amlodhi

Yourself excluded of course.

User

Well I'm glad that you have found something to believe in, yet I'm sorry that it is so corrupt.

Jim Larmore

There are two major areas of deceit in most of Christiandom today. They are the immortality of the soul and eternal hell-fire. Satan , the father of all lies started this in the garden of eden when he lied to Eve, he said thou shalt not surely die. This lie has been going on ever since. Nothing in the Bible says we have an immortal soul and nothing in the Bible says that there is a hell-fire burning right now or that it will last throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. Rom 6:28 says the wages of sin is DEATH, not roasting and toasting in the flames of hell forever. Ezek 18:20 says the soul that sinneth it shall die. Eccl 9:5 The living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything. Ps 115:17 says the dead praise not the lord nor do any that go down into the grave. Only the righteous are given eternal life.
So who are all these ghosts and paranormal appearings , and what is this all about. We need to remember that 1/3 of all the angels was cast out of heaven when lucifer fell as per Revelations 16:14 "they are spirits of devils. working miracles. So the main reason Satan wants us to believe in the immortality of the soul is so he can better decieve us. If we truely believe a departed loved one was come back from heaven to tell us that the mark of the beast is not really what it is then we would believe a lie and be decieved.
Hell-fire is a little bit more tricky because it does say that the smoke of their torment ascends up forever. However when you look at the whole Bible its clear that it won't be eternal. In the first place the Bible says that hell will burn right here on earth after the millenium. Rev20:9 says this also in Rev 21:5 it says God will create a whole new world after the fire has gone out. How could he do this if it was burning eternally. In Malachi 4:1-3 says that the wicked will be burned up as stubble and they will be left neither root nor branch. In verse 3 it says we will tread down the wicked they shall be ashes under our feet. Ashes represent whats left over when the fire has completed it work. The fire that shall not be queched is just that. What God starts no one can stop until its work is done then it will go out. The smoke of their torment ascending forever it true , have you ever watched smoke ascend? It just keeps going even after the fire goes out.
When man claims to make an etenal torture place like many denominations do makes God a evil being. A God of love could not eternally torture someone for this life no matter what they did. God is a God of justice. If we choose not to accept the plan of salvation we will burn but it wil be a fire that will ultimately kill us etenally, and we will never live again , its the effect that is eternal not the fire. Listen to What Satan will get as his punishment in Hell-fire. Ezekiel 28:18 "Thou has defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquities of thy traffic: therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee ,it shall DEVOUR thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of them that behold thee verse 19 " and NEVER shalt thou be anymore"
Even the evilest being in the universe shall be reduced to ashes and shall never be anymore. If hell was to burn forever it wouldn't have said he satan would be reduced to ashes. God is a God of Love and as such He give us a free will as was mentioned earlier, He will not force us but if we choose to believe a lie and this world is full of lies then we will die in the flames of hell but it won't last for eternity. No way!!!!!

Unbeliever

How can we possibly be separated from an omnipresent God? If he is literally everywhere, then it stands to reason that wherever we might happen to be, he is there also, right? And besides, Psalms 139:8 says: I've heard it said many times by Christians, in an effort to remove the fire and brimstone aspect of hell, that hell is nothing more than the eternal separation from God, but I'm not buying it!

Doctor X

Interesting. . . .

I gather when YHWH repents of his sin in the DH this brings him closer to us. Granted, few of us sin by squishing seventy-odd thousand innocent people. . . .

Jim:

Only two?

Satan does not appear in the garden of Eden.

"Lucifer" is a result of the Latin translation of a Greek translation of a taunt directed at a king. "He" is not a "satan" character. Revelation is a rather late book and did not influence, of course, the OT texts.

I would recommend a more-up-to-date translation of the texts than the KJV, incidentally.

Furthermore the author of Ezekiel is attacking the Prince of Tyre, not Satan: Ezek. 28

If you are interested in the development of the stn from a humble "stumbling block" to a guy who sleeps with Mia Farrow, Neil Forsyth's The Old Enemy: Satan and the Combat Myth, Princeton University Press, 1987 is a good start.

--J.D.