Roger Pearse

This seems to require no response.

ROTFL.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse

This is to misrepresent Eusebius, and to pretend that literature does not exist as a genre.

I'm sorry to say that I have no information on this topic, although I have never heard of such a story, I must say. What is needed is raw, primary, data, isn't it?

I'd suggest proceeding something along these lines:

1. Where does the idea that there is such a story come from? Do we have any leads to the primary data?
2. Where in the primary data are the legends of Dionysius discussed? (Hesiod, 'Works & Days', or something like that? <guessing>) We'd want a good list of the literary refs.
3. Once we have this info, we can go through them, and get a good idea as to what (if anything) is alleged in this direction.

I think we want some sort of dictionary of classical antiquity, which has detailed refs, and follow those refs.

There seems to be a remarkable dearth of useful material online, I must say. A few trivial accounts, with no indication of what in the way of data underlies them, was all I could find. It's remarkable how little there is, given the pseudo-pagans prancing around. Perhaps worshipping rocks is more fun than documenting facts, eh? (Must be nice rocks). What are the main literary sources for ancient paganism, I wonder?

All the best

demoninho

H,m I found a transcript of the television show I mentioned in my OP. It's in pdf and in dutch but it mentions the original english text is also there but hidden ( I don't know how to unhide but maybe you do)

transcript

Roger Pearse

Well, I've taken a look, but I don't know how to 'unhide' either -- anyone. My Dutch is wretched, I'm afraid.

This all seems to be stuff by Freke and Gandy, doesn't it? There seems to be a reference to an amulet, which, we are told, displays a picture of Jesus, but is labelled in accompanying Greek text as being Dionysius. I wasn't quite clear whether some source for this was given -- Dimoinho, would you translate the relevant bits for us, and see if we can get a ref to something scholarly.

The other references to Dionysius appeared to be assertions, undocumented. Again, if I missed something, by all means run it into English.

Obviously we need to get past Freke and Gandy and see the real publication of the artefact, as F&G are not scholars, but money-seekers, and so are only repeating (probably inaccurately) something they read elsewhere.

If the amulet is all there is, and it is as represented, obviously it has no value as testimony. Such items can come into existence in any number of ways. This is the frustrating thing about archaeology -- it's great, solid, evidence, but usually doesn't solve anything. We need literary evidence to make sense of it, as a rule.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Bede

Well, that script has Freke and Gandy being interviewed. Unless they had their worked trashed, I don't think we need pursue this any further as they are both frauds and nutters. If Eusebius is a bit unrelaible he is a model of probity compared to those two. They are the source of the Dionysius being crucified story and anything they say must be taken with buckets of salt.

Yours

Bede

Bede's Library - faith and reason

joedad

Here's Bede's amulet which is supposedly a depiction of christ crucified, but that is supposedly demonic, hence magical, hence non-christian, because it contains "magical characters" on the reverse side. The Dionysus/Bacchus amulet is obviously more straightforward, and probably somewhat color enhanced, but I'm guessing.

Anyway, it is described on page 27 of Magic in the Middle Ages asAs stated previously, I think the author and Bede are seeing this amulet through a christian lens. It doesn't even have a cross, and the figure seems to be floating in space, with branch-like arms/hands sticking out from the neck. And is that a head?

I don't know what that thing is supposedly "kneeling," and I wish we could see the back. The author also says the inscription reads "Jesus M[essiah]" so I assume he is inferring that the "M" stands for "Messiah." Can anyone help with the inscription?

Sure wish I could see those "demonic," hence magical, characters on the back.

Roger Pearse

This idea would appear to be the basis of one of their books, which presumably they were promoting:

The Jesus Mysteries: Was the "Original Jesus" a Pagan God? (or via: amazon.co.uk)

A look at the titles of books written by each in Amazon is instructive. Freke is author of Exotic Massage for Lovers (or via: amazon.co.uk) .
Hmm. Clearly a man of versatile gifts.

Obviously there is a market for "The Real Story About Christianity As Known Only To Us" books in the US. Full marks on them for exploiting it, of course: but a nuisance to those of us not making money, and interested in the subject.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Edited Amazon links --Celsus

Toto

But we know that the Christians burned a lot of pagan literature when they had the chance. (The Bible records instances of this.)

All the best to you.

joedad

Roger Pearse,

Were you a christian in the third century and thereabouts, you'd be hearing this from pagans. It is, therefore, useless polemic imho. In particular, I think you err when you do not see religious continuity between paganism and christianism, if indeed you do not.

If I can steal from Dr Seuss,

• One god, two god,
  red god, blue god'

Do you see a crucifixion in Bede's amulet?

Dean Anderson

Well, I've had a look at a copy of Freke and Gandy's book ('The Jesus Mysteries') to see where they get their info from.

On the death of Dionysus they state (Page 62: I have placed their references in the same places they have, but numbered them 1-4 instead of 202-205 for clarity)

Their notes for this passage are:

(1) 'Dionysos Myth and Cult' (W. F. Otto 1965, Spring Publications) - See chapter 6, note 2 for details of August Frickenhaus' collection of many such depictions.

[My note: Freke and Gandy reproduce two depictions - one from a 2nd-3rd century sarcophagus showing 'a baby Dionysus being presented a large cross as an omen of his ultimate fate', and the other also from a sarcophagus of the same period showing Dionysus being 'lifted up on a tree' and saying that in many such images a crosspiece is seen (there is not one visible in this particular image)]

(2) Mark 15:17, 'Greek Religion: Archaic and Classical' (W. Burkert 1985, Harvard University Press) page 283, 'The Ancient Mysteries Sourcebook' (M. W. Meyer 1987, HarperCollins) page 59

(3) 'The Canon of the New Testament' (B. M. Metzger 1987, Oxford University Press) page 57, The Epistle of Barnabas

(4) 'Prologemena to the Study of Greek Religion' (J. Harrison 1922, Princeton University Press) page 569

Now I don't know whether Freke and Gandy have misrepresented their sources or not. However, since they give their sources openly (including page numbers) I suppose it is fairly easy to check.

Are they being misquoted?

Does anyone here have access to these sources so that they can check them?

Are the sources themselves known to be reliable or not?

Personally, I am willing to keep an open mind and not dismiss this as rubbish just yet.

Hmm... can we leave the blatant ad-hominem attacks out of this. They are not constructive at all.

Bede - What grounds do you have to dismiss the paragraph above as being that of 'frauds and nutters'? Can you quote me the originals to show where Freke and Gandy misrepresent them in a fraudulent and insane way?

Roger - So the guy is a good lover and masseur. Good for him. Does that make him know any less about Dionysus?