Johnnyboy

Hey all. I am new here and my english isn't very good ( I am from Germany), but I have some questions I did not get answered anywhere else.

Scholars normally date the book of daniel to the Maccabean age. Fundamentalists normally argue, that Flavius Josephus mentions the book of daniel. Here is the passage:

And when he (Alexander) went up into the temple, he offered sacrifice to God, according to the high priest's direction, and magnificently treated both the high priest and the priests. And when the Book of Daniel was showed him (23) wherein Daniel declared that one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended.

from antiques judicae XI, chapter 8.


What do you think about that passage? Do you think it describes something what actually happend?


Greetings from Heidelberg.

spin

For history earlier than his own time Josephus is subject to the sources available to him. It is highly unlikely that Alexander ever went to Jerusalem, as it had nothing to offer him and was out of the way of his journey to Egypt. Then, one would wonder what this book of Daniel written in Hebrew and Aramaic would have meant to him. This is information that Josephus had to take from a source and it's not paticularly convincing.

Josephus also gives Daniel in AJ 10.11.7 & 12.7.6 as having predicted the desolation caused by Antiochus IV. He also uses Daniel as a historical source, though most scholars these days don't see it that way.

You are more likely to get better luck out of Josephus when he is writing about things that he saw or could find out about from others who saw the events.


spin

Johnnyboy

Thank you very much spin,

is there any other historical source who describes the events around Alexanders campaign in israel even similar like Josephus?

spin

Unfortunately not that I know of. I'm not sure about the Greek sources. I think he whizzed down the coast to Egypt, though Greek forces went through Samaria as they slaughtered a number of people at a place called Wadi ed-Daliyeh, where the bodies were found in the 1950s along with various letters and other documents.


spin

Johnnyboy

Thanks, I asked a german theologian, who said he thinks that Josephus just wanted to write something apologetic for his people. Well, but that was only his oppinion.

spin

I don't find such a response convincing. Everything he wrote from before his time was from some source. When he had no source, there was a gap in his history. He didn't invent anything on those occasions. Why should he do so on this one?


spin

unknown4

I find it kind of odd, if Josephus is to be trusted, that he says what I've quoted below. If Titus was responsible for the "daily sacrifice" stopping, I think Josephus is trying to see him as fulfillment of Daniel 9:27. Also, elsewhere, Josephus claims that the destruction of the tower of Antonia was in fulfillment of a prophecy. And, Josephus claims the temple was destroyed on the 10th of Av, which is the same date Jeremiah 52:12 claims the first temple was destroyed. I find a "coincidence" explanation unsatisfying. In fact, Josephus makes a point about it being the same date. And, Josephus claims Daniel predicted events concerning the Jewish-Roman war like he did with Antiochus. All of what I reference below, seems to me, to be implying Josephus believed Daniel referred to the Jewish-Roman war. Should we trust Josephus in everything that he purports to have been an eyewitness or contemporary of? He seems to be a definite "Jewish apologist".

Quotes are below:

AND now Titus gave orders to his soldiers that were with him to dig up the foundations of the tower of Antonia, and make him a ready passage for his army to come up; while he himself had Josephus brought to him, (for he had been informed that on that very day, which was the seventeenth day (5) of Panemus, [Tamuz,] the sacrifice called "the Daily Sacrifice" had failed, and had not been offered to God, for want of men to offer it, and that the people were grievously troubled at it,). (Wars of the Jews, Book 6, Chapter 2)

with an explanatory footnote saying:


This was a remarkable day indeed, the seventeenth of Paneruns. [Tamuz,] A.D. 70, when, according to Daniel's prediction, six hundred and six years before, the Romans "in half a week caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease," Daniel 9:27. For from the month of February, A.D. 66, about which time Vespasian entered on this war, to this very time, was just three years and a half. See Bishop Lloyd's Tables of Chronology, published by Mr. Marshall, on this year. Nor is it to be omitted, what year nearly confirms this duration of the war, that four years before the war begun was somewhat above seven years five months before the destruction of Jerusalem, ch. 5. sect. 3.


Thou hast indignation at me again, and makest a clamor at me, and reproachest me; indeed I cannot deny but I am worthy of worse treatment than all this amounts to, because, in opposition to fate, I make this kind invitation to thee, and endeavor to force deliverance upon those whom God hath condemned. And who is there that does not know what the writings of the ancient prophets contain in them, - and particularly that oracle which is just now going to be fulfilled upon this miserable city? For they foretold that this city should be then taken when somebody shall begin the slaughter of his own countrymen. And are not both the city and the entire temple now full of the dead bodies of your countrymen? It is God, therefore, it is God himself who is bringing on this fire, to purge that city and temple by means of the Romans, (8) and is going to pluck up this city, which is full of your pollutions." (Wars of the Jews, Book 6, Chapter 2)

Now if any one consider these things, he will find that God takes care of mankind, and by all ways possible foreshows to our race what is for their preservation; but that men perish by those miseries which they madly and voluntarily bring upon themselves; for the Jews, by demolishing the tower of Antonia, had made their Temple four-square, while at the same time they had it written in their sacred oracles, -- "That then should their city be taken, as well as their Holy House, when once their Temple should become four-square." (Wars of the Jews, 6, Book 5, Section 4, 310-311)

But these Zealots came at last to that degree of barbarity as not to bestow a burial either on those slain in the city, or on those that lay along the roads; but as if they had made an agreement to cancel both the laws of their country and the laws of nature, an, at the same time that they defiled men with their wicked action, they would pollute the Divinity itself also, they left the dead bodies to putrify under the sun.
...These men, therefore, trampled upon all the laws of man, and laughed at the Laws of God; and for the oracles of the prophets, they ridiculed them as the tricks of jugglers. Yet did these prophets foretell many things concerning virtue and vice, by the transgression of which these Zealots occasioned the fulfilling of those very prophecies belonging to their country.
For there was a certain ancient oracle of those men, that the city should then be taken and the sanctuary burnt, by right of war, when a sedition should invade the Jews and their own hands should pollute the Temple of God. Now, while these Zealots did not disbelieve these predictions, they made themselves the instruments of their accomplishment. (Wars of the Jews, Book 4, Chapter 6, Section 3, 381-388)

and that from among them there should arise a certain king that should overcome our nation and their laws, and should take away their political government, and should spoil the temple, and forbid the sacrifices to be offered for three years' time. And indeed it so came to pass, that our nation suffered these things under Antiochus Epiphanes, according to Daniel's vision, and what he wrote many years before they came to pass. In the very same manner Daniel also wrote concerning the Roman government, and that our country should be made desolate by them. (Antiquities of the Jews, Book 10, Chapter 11, Section 7)

Johnnyboy

Thank you for your answers, but I have to say, that I am still not satisfied. Are there no statements from scholars, discussing that problem in more detail?

Greetings from Heidelberg.

Toto

From a previous thread on this section of Josephus:

Heritage and Hellenism: The Reinvention of Jewish Tradition (or via: amazon.co.uk) is searchable on Amazon

Johnnyboy

Thank you Toto,

is there any hellenistic writting, mentioning that Alexanders was in Jerusalem anytime?

Greetings from Heidelberg.