funinspace

Any opinions here, on the footnote in the NIV for He 6:4-6? We were having a discussion in the General Religious Discussion section about these verses, and I would be interested in getting opinions from this area on the possible, plausible, and probable meanings of the Greek behind these verses. The key "English" word of contention is the word "since" as shown in the NAS translation. The NIV footnote suggests that the word "while" could be used in a temporal sense to show that xians could come back. As far as I know, the NIV is the only version that notes this.

NIV Hebrews 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted of the goodness of the Word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subject Him to public disgrace."

NAS He 6:4-6: For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.

Now here is a Christian site that I found that talked about the verses within the context of the chapter:
http://www.preceptaustin.org/hebrews_6_notes.htm
Thanks,
DK

Furyus George

I think the verses must be taken in context with the whole book of Hebrews, and with the message of the Bible itself.

It is my understanding that Hebrews was written to Jews who once had accepted salvation by faith in Jesus Christ, but were slipping back into the old Law and traditions to seek forgiveness of sin. For instance, note that the book opens by proclaiming that the Son had provided purification for sins and now sits at the right hand of God (1:3).

Note in 2:1-4, the writer (assumed to be Paul, but that isn't the issue here) says that the reader must pay careful attention so as not to drift away by ignoring this great salvation. The writer goes on to say that Jesus is greater than Moses (His grace is gives life, the Law of Moses brings death). In 3:14, it is written "We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first." This shows how the Hebrews had turned from faith in Christ's work back towards having a human priest intercede for them, which is discussed in chapters 4 and 5.

The writer explains that Christ is the "great high priest." The Hebrews apparently were ignoring this and turning back towards human priests and the Law. Hence the warning about falling away after tasting the grace of God. Note that the writer claims that these Hebrews should be teachers by now, but instead need to relearn the very basics all over again (5:12).

These Hebrews disgraced Christ by going back to a human priest who would perform sacrifices for their sins. These sacrifices never took away sin, but instead pointed towards the One who would sacrifice and take away the sin of all mankind.

Note that 15 out of 19 paragraphs in chapter 11 start with the phrase "By faith..." The writer is pounding home his point that salvation comes through faith, not works or animal sacrifice performed by human preists.

Taken in context with the entire New Testament, salvation comes by faith, and it is by grace. In other words, it is free for the asking. By rejecting Christ and returning to works performed by human priests, the Hebrews were rejecting salvation by grace.

It is my understanding, my ferverent hope, that once saved always saved. However, if one decides intellectually that God does not exist and ultimately rejects faith and belief, I might see where they indeed would lose their salvation. One can't earn salvation, but it is clear one must believe in the grace of God in order to receive it.

Furyus George, clings to faith

funinspace

Furyus George,

This has been/is being argued in the General Religious Discussion area under this thread:
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=85070&page=3

I am not interested in contextual redactions here. I am interested in the Greek roots. I do not know Greek and have to rely on alternate sources, and am hoping to get a better insight here.

Respectfully,
DK

RRK

You're aware that the Peshitta is a translation, yes? I find it very unlikely that Hebrews is a translation from the Aramaic, the Greek is obviously not translatorese. And there's nothing amazing about that, seeing as Paul was the self-described "apostle to the Gentiles" (Rom. 11:13).

Incidentally, the belief that Paul wrote Hebrews is unpopular today, partly because the writing style is very different from Paul's. It's also disputed as to whether the letter was written to Jews at all, this is inferred from the frequent references to Judaism, but as Edgar Goodspeed writes, "[the writer's] polished Greek style would be a strange vehicle for a message to Aramaic-speaking Jews or Christians of Jewish blood."

The relevant section is as follows:

anastaurountas (crucify) heautois (themselves) ton (the) huion tou theou (son of God) kai (and) paradeigmatizontas (make an example of [him]). (He. 6:6)

Note that anastaurountas, being in the accusative, describes the son of God, not themselves! As far as I can see, there's nothing to suggest it means "while" they have fallen away, the implication is they cannot repent "because" or "seeing as" they have crucified the son of God (again).

Oh, while "paradeigmatizô" in its most general sense means "to make an example of someone" (c.f. Mt. 1:19), all translations (rightly) translate it as "putting him to shame", or some variant thereof.

7thangel

Funinspace,

The context of Hebrew 6:1-6 is in regards to living in perfection, and thus live ourselves in a sinless life. To live a sinless life is in conformity to the message of Paul (Rom 6:6-12), and John (1John 3:4-9). Hence we become free of sin, there is therefore no more repentance of the part of the believer. Thus Paul said, "For the Gifts and calling of God are without repentance" "Rom 11:29". Likewise, the book of Hebrew itself say's, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." (Heb 10:16-18).

The doctrines of baptisms, laying of hands, the ressurection are all leading us to understand our salvation through the "predestination" of God. Now, realizing that we are saved according to predestination, we come to understand that the doctrines leading us to understand predestination would become useless in our salvation, even unto our lives, though for some reason, we do the doctrines because of God's permission, or plan. Predestination entails that God is responsible for our whole being, thus the perfect will of God is fulfilled in us, rather than we fulfilling his will.. And thus we conform our perfection according to such belief/understanding, not according to the doctrines as if we are being saved through obedience unto these doctrines.

If we believe in the predestination of God, then therefore we should have no more conscience of sin. And if we sin, then we have not yet fully known the salvation of God by predestinating us according to His purposes in Christ. To accept that we sin is contradictory to the belief that we are predestined. Now, Hebrew state that it is imposible that after being given to know the good word of God (of his predestination), that we need to renew ourselves through repentance - that just doesn't make sense. If God is responsible for our whole being because of His predestination of us to be who we are, then let God be responsible for everything, of our weaknesses and of our erring.

God Bless,
Nilo

funinspace

I know there must be an answer in there somewhere. But what was the question?

May the Force be with you,
DK

7thangel

I was thinking that if you would perfectly understand what Hebrew 6:1-6 is saying, you would resolve even all other questions regarding it.

funinspace

That is funny. That varient wasn't even really offered in the General Religious Discusion Forum on how this verse jives with the rest of the NT. And I wasn't about to bring it up there myself. Why don't you offer that up to the other Christians there? I didn't buy into Predestination theory as Methodist nor as a Fundy. Guess what? I'm still not buying.

Just curious. So are you calling the verse false or what? And thanks for catching the "force-bless" hint.

DK

7thangel

Well, Christians are lost these days.

Good idea, thanks for reminding me.

Well, from me it is actually free, no reservations required.

Taking note of my explanations, it does not really matter which interpretations is used. Even the Aramaic interpretation (and I think it is more clearer) conforms to my explanations.

The verse is true, those who are trying to conform it to their erroneous doctrines are which that are false.

Furyus George

Just to be clear, 7, are you saying that you no longer sin and that you live a life of perfection?

Furyus George, baloney detector ramps up