Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 04-25-2007, 08:20 AM

Why does that number appear in John 21?

Cege · 04-25-2007, 01:16 PM

John 21:10-12 (NIV):
10Jesus said to them, "Bring some of the fish you have just caught." 11Simon Peter climbed aboard and dragged the net ashore. It was full of large fish, 153, but even with so many the net was not torn. 12Jesus said to them, "Come and have breakfast." None of the disciples dared ask him, "Who are you?" They knew it was the Lord.

There is much in Chapt 21 that makes one wonder "why is that detail included?".

Some have suggested that details like 153 fish are given in attempt to confirm that the writer of GJohn was an eyewitness (and presumably, counted the fish correctly, himself). Some have suggested the number is symbolic.

Jerome claimed that 153 was the number of different kinds of fish in the sea. (Wrong)

St Augustine deciphered that the number 153 was used because it was a 'perfect number' derived from 10 (as in Commandments) plus 7 (Gifts of the Spirit) which equals 17, and if numbers 1-17 are added together (1+2+3+...+17), the total is tah dah! 153.

Cyril of Alexandria said that 153 is the total based on 100 representing Gentiles + 50 as Israel + 3 for the Trinity.

I haven't found any satisfying explanation for the number 153.

S.C.Carlson · 04-25-2007, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cege

I haven't found any satisfying explanation for the number 153.

If you want a "satisfying" explanation, I'm not aware of any. I'd put more stock in the perfect number hypothesis if I had more evidence that this kind of numerology was more popular in early Christian (as opposed to gematria).

Stephen

Mageth · 04-25-2007, 01:22 PM

Umm, maybe it was just the number of large fish in the net, like it says?

Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.

Toto · 04-25-2007, 01:47 PM

It seems unlikely that anyone would stop to count out exactly 153 fish.

Catch of 153 fish is marked with warning flags, probably for the references to the gnostic origins of Christianity; but taking those into account, it says:

Quote:

In the time of Pythagoras, 153 was most significant for being one of the two numbers in the closest fraction known, at the time, to the true value of the square root of 3, the fraction in question being 265/153 (the difference between this and the square root of 3 is merely 0.000025......). The ratio of 153:265 was consequently known throughout the hellenic world as the measure of the fish.

The fact that the measure of the fish was known to include 153, as one of its two numbers, and that the measure of how many fish the disciples are said to have caught is also 153, has not gone unnoticed by many scholars, with some suggesting that the number of fish in the New Testament episode is simply down to being the most familiar large number to the writer, or a deliberate reference to the geometric nomenclature as a sort of in-joke. It is significant that a story was told of Pythagoras, and later reported by Plato, that is very similar, even in wording, to the Biblical narrative of this event; some scholars have argued that that the entire Biblical episode is a coded reference to a geometric diagram, since Pythagoreanism saw geometry and numbers as having deep esoteric meaning, and via Hermeticism (and more minor routes) it was profoundly influential in the development of hellenic mystery religions, and in certain aspects of gnosticism, an early form of Christianity. . . .

and it goes on to construct a diagram from the passage.

This Christian site seems to also see some gematria in the passage.

The story involving Pythagoras is referenced here:

Quote:

As accompanied by the fish story of Jesus miraculously helping his disciples land a catch of 153 fish, this same feat is also achieved by Pythagoras five hundred years eariler in an ancient legend recorded by the neoplatonist Porphyry. Pythagoras himself predicting the exact number of fish to be caught, with the 153 being a sacred Pythagorean number associated with the "Vesica Piscis" or "Vessel of the Fish". When the circumference of one circle touches the centre of the other they both combine to produce the fish, or the ratio of height to length of this shape being 153:265, a formula known to Archimedes and was a very potent mathematical tool being the nearest whole number approximation ratio of the equilateral triangle.

Also here and many other websites with references to mysticism and esoteric knowlege.

This is such a neat story that it seems almost unfair to point out that the Pythagoras fish story that I found on tertullian.org does not mention the number 153 and has some differences from the NT story:

Quote:

25. While at the Olympic games, he was discoursing with his friends about auguries, omens, and divine signs, and how men of true piety do receive messages from the Gods. Flying over his head was an eagle, who stopped, and came down to Pythagoras. After stroking her awhile, he released her. Meeting with some fishermen who were drawing in their nets heavily laden with fishes from the deep, he predicted the exact number of fish they had caught. The fishermen said that if his estimate was accurate they would do whatever he commanded. They counted them accurately, and found the number correct. He then bade them return the fish alive into the sea; and, what is more wonderful, not one of them died, although they had been out of the water a considerable time. He paid them and left.

Cege · 04-25-2007, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

It seems unlikely that anyone would stop to count out exactly 153 fish.

Unless, perhaps, the number of fish were to be taxed, or evenly divided, as I've read at various places on the Web.

The story about Pythagoras and the number 153 is repeated in numerous posts around the internet, but I haven't found an actual reliable source that he considered that number "sacred". Anyone?

Chili · 04-25-2007, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Why does that number appear in John 21?

Because that is where Peter put on his cloak of faith once again, and dove headfirst into the celestial sea which is the right side of the brain and there caught the big fish upon which the Church would be built.

Remember here thar Peter was the flip side of Thomas as faith is opposite to doubt and with all doubt removed from Thomas' after his exclamation "my Lord and my God" Peter was defrocked because faith cannot be conceived to exist without doubt. Hence they caught nothing all night just because Peter was defrocked.

The numbers 1 5 and 3 are here combined to give some measure to the catch which was nothing else but the understanding of the series of events that led to this awakening. They would become the basis for their teaching with the number 1 meaning "feed my lambs", the number 5 "tend my sheep" and the number 3 "feed my sheep," that they will be followed by the solemn declaration that Jesus made in verse 18 which would be how faith must come to an end there suggesting to be the sort of death for Peter.

The numbers do have a meaning but I am not going to add that here now.

Clivedurdle · 04-26-2007, 01:32 AM

I hope people realise why I opened this thread - it is the text of the sermon Peter Kirby refers to!

I note the use of terms like esoteric and gnostic in the responses above.

Instead of just rejecting this stuff out of hand as internet mumbo jumbo, might it assist the debate about mj hj if we take these connections seriously and explore them?

Especially as we have early xian writers explicitly explaining it in mathematical terms, and neo pythagoriarinism is a fascinating mixture of religious beliefs and logical thinking. (Is that what xianity is - a form of neo pythagorianism (and pagan) religions that are attempting to unite logic and passion?)

I assume we are attempting to understand this fascinating phenomenon xianity here - and the impressive affects it has on individual's lives.

And then we find a classic mystical number in a story about fish...

What exactly is a story of the doings of the old gods doing in a central xian story?

Fishers of men! Talk about bringing together the spiritual and human worlds!

Clivedurdle · 04-26-2007, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cege

Unless, perhaps, the number of fish were to be taxed, or evenly divided, as I've read at various places on the Web.

The story about Pythagoras and the number 153 is repeated in numerous posts around the internet, but I haven't found an actual reliable source that he considered that number "sacred". Anyone?

http://www.nrich.maths.org/public/vi...index&refpage=

You must remember that Pythagoras thought of maths as sacred - I agree with that idea. Maths is a very powerful logical tool and is very powerful and beautiful if you "get" it - a major problem with maths teaching may be that its intrinsic beauty is not often taught.

153 is a special number, it has all sorts of connections and interrelationships with other numbers.

What is so amusing is that it is very easy to make up false connections, but that does not mean all connections are false, and it seems to be forgotten that people have always explained using the thoughts and understandings they have.

Xianity does feel like a usurpation of the true gods into a judaic mind set. And a central starter "Jesus" disappears further into the fog.

Clivedurdle · 04-26-2007, 02:02 AM

I need to repeat my point!

Mathematics is beautiful, artistic, magical, language, a religious and spiritual matter.

Hawkins mind of god is a way of expressing this. This is not the xian god, but is probably Apollo!

04-25-2007, 08:20 AM	#1
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	153 Why does that number appear in John 21?

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04-25-2007, 01:16 PM	#2
Cege Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: 36078 Posts: 849	John 21:10-12 (NIV): 10Jesus said to them, "Bring some of the fish you have just caught." 11Simon Peter climbed aboard and dragged the net ashore. It was full of large fish, 153, but even with so many the net was not torn. 12Jesus said to them, "Come and have breakfast." None of the disciples dared ask him, "Who are you?" They knew it was the Lord. There is much in Chapt 21 that makes one wonder "why is that detail included?". Some have suggested that details like 153 fish are given in attempt to confirm that the writer of GJohn was an eyewitness (and presumably, counted the fish correctly, himself). Some have suggested the number is symbolic. Jerome claimed that 153 was the number of different kinds of fish in the sea. (Wrong) St Augustine deciphered that the number 153 was used because it was a 'perfect number' derived from 10 (as in Commandments) plus 7 (Gifts of the Spirit) which equals 17, and if numbers 1-17 are added together (1+2+3+...+17), the total is tah dah! 153. Cyril of Alexandria said that 153 is the total based on 100 representing Gentiles + 50 as Israel + 3 for the Trinity. I haven't found any satisfying explanation for the number 153.

04-25-2007, 01:22 PM	#4
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Umm, maybe it was just the number of large fish in the net, like it says? Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.

04-26-2007, 01:32 AM	#8
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	I hope people realise why I opened this thread - it is the text of the sermon Peter Kirby refers to! I note the use of terms like esoteric and gnostic in the responses above. Instead of just rejecting this stuff out of hand as internet mumbo jumbo, might it assist the debate about mj hj if we take these connections seriously and explore them? Especially as we have early xian writers explicitly explaining it in mathematical terms, and neo pythagoriarinism is a fascinating mixture of religious beliefs and logical thinking. (Is that what xianity is - a form of neo pythagorianism (and pagan) religions that are attempting to unite logic and passion?) I assume we are attempting to understand this fascinating phenomenon xianity here - and the impressive affects it has on individual's lives. And then we find a classic mystical number in a story about fish... What exactly is a story of the doings of the old gods doing in a central xian story? Fishers of men! Talk about bringing together the spiritual and human worlds!

04-26-2007, 02:02 AM	#10
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	I need to repeat my point! Mathematics is beautiful, artistic, magical, language, a religious and spiritual matter. Hawkins mind of god is a way of expressing this. This is not the xian god, but is probably Apollo!

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