Joe Bloe

I don't know about others, but I don't go out of my way to try to deconvert anyone. I will, though, explain what I believe and why I believe it if they ask about my beliefs or push their own, which may be pretty much the same thing or at least to have the same potential effect as trying to deconvert them.

As for the hurt, having gone through deconversion myself I agree that it can hurt. But it didn't harm me. I look at it now as growing pains: the pains of growing intellectually, emotionally, and morally to be the sort of person who can stand for myself and take responsibility for my own life without having to lean on a religious crutch. That's the way it looks from my perspective, anyway. Yes, the stretching of growth can hurt, and realizing I've got no one but myself to hang the responsibility for my life on can be intimidating, but I've found the growth to be worth it and taking on the responsibility to be quite satisfying. I want that for others, even if it may hurt while trying to attain it. Besides that, it seems from my perspective to be sort of condescending or patronizing to leave someone with what I believe to be a false hope just because I wonder whether they can handle losing it.

So, when I have tried to deconvert a religious person, I don't just try to take away their hope. I offer a constructive and positive alternative. And that, I think, is a necessary (though not sufficient) thing to do in any deconversion attempt, whether or not you use the Bible. The alternative I offer may not be as desirable as their "pie in the sky, bye and bye" hope, but it has the advantage of being real in the here and now.

Tubby Lardmore

In a fairly long email exchange regarding Christianity, the woman I was corresponding with (we've never met in person) admitted that the Book of Revelation read like "a bad drug trip." She also said that the Apostle Paul came across as a hater of women.

Still didn't change her mind about being a Christian.

tovarij

It was a huge part in my deconversion. I still am not certain about God, or even revelation, but I don't see the Bible as a document filled with sacred truths the way I once did.

At best I think it has some truths, and a lot of extraneous, inaccurate, and plain cruel material. It would be very hard to persuade me now that all of the Bible is inspired.

LoneWolf

Deconverting was one of the greatest things to happen to me. And I don't think you will find too many people here who have deconverted who wished it never happened. Somebody won't stop being a wonderful person just because they stop being a Christian. But Joe is right, the responsible thing to do if you deconvert someone is to show them the positive side of a life of self reliance. It can be very empowering.

That being said I don't go around trying to deconvert Christians. Christians who mind their business, go to church, and generally go about their lives will likely never hear an argument from me. If someone wants to live a lie and is happy doing so fine. However if they try and SPREAD that lie (i.e. evangelize) then I will counter with the truth. If they attempt to convert ME I will do my best to show them the error of their ways. Or if they decide to judge me and think I am evil or just "hate God" because I am an atheist then I will correct them and show them exactly what an atheist is and why I am one. I have no problems letting people live their lives, but at the same time I will NOT turn the other cheek. :devil1:

Chris JW

I know a guy who is a physics teacher at a Catholic school, and calls himself a Christian even though he doesn't really believe in any of it. He simply thinks that it's a decent expression of direction.

I know New Agers who use the "it's true in my reality", mantra to evade any criticism of their beliefs. If I counter that: you'd be really annoyed if your washing machine didnt work and the manufacturer said, "Well it works in my reality", "maybe you just have bad Karma, and I'm teaching you a spiritual lesson." - this would just float over their head. LOGIC FREE ZONE.

I downloaded an Astrology program for a New Ager, and she was dismayed that there were so many knobs and whistles on it for each variant of Astrology, that she couldn't get any of them to coincide with her book. I patiently taught her that she was in fact a Tropical Modern Astrologer who used the Placidean house system. (As opposed to a medieval astrologer using the sidereal system with a placidean house.) Did it worry her that there were so many contradictory versions of astrology producing random results? LOGIC FREE ZONE.

One has to start wondering if those who can't perceive logic are really cut out for conversion away from their arbitrary crutches, besides anything except a slow and painful realisation that may take decades.

I know an essentially fundamentalist old Christian woman who waved her hand at me and looked away after saying "There was a flood. It's proven." Her faith is unshakable because God gives her what she asks for. Little birds appear when she wants to see them, and children get named the names she dreams. Her son in law and her run a ministry. POINTLESS EVEN MENTIONING IT ZONE.

Your friend is someone who listens to what you say, and you actually listen to them. They are deconverted already, no matter what they call themselves.

Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to preach to the non-listening - maybe using tactics such as loud noises, comedy, parodoy.

Vorkosigan

My own experience, now swelling with several deconverts (hooray!), is that while knowing the Bible is great for deconverting people who are "Bible Christians" it doesn't work well on Catholics. They are far better prepared with 2,000 years of defenses, redefintions, shifting goalposts, and hedgings, since they believe in the Church, not the Bible, whose function is merely to legitimate the Church and its doctrines. I have not yet found the right language for use in deconverting Catholics. But I'd welcome any clues.

Vorkosigan

Chris Weimer

Vork - Orthodox too. Many I know wouldn't even hold that the Bible is literal. The best you can do for them is logical flaws in theistic assumptions. However, I have found that generally Catholics are more tolerant people than your average run-of-the-mill protestant, especially when compared to evangelicals, or even Mormons.

Reena

As a former Catholic who has presented "evil bible quotes" to several Catholics (with no effect) I know exactly what you mean.

The way to deconvert Catholics is to discredit the authority of the Church. If you can show that the Church ever contradicted itself in official doctrine, you can destroy a Catholic's faith because all of Catholicism rests on the idea that the Holy Spirit guides the Church by virtue of protecting it from teaching error in matters of faith and morals. This is very difficult to do, however, because few doctrines have an "infallible" rubber stamp on them.

A weaker but still effective line of argument is to show how present doctrines didn't exist in the early Church.

Also, attacking the basis for the Church's claim to authority is good. The "thou art Peter and on this rock I will build my Church" verse is the key one used by Catholics. Arguing how this verse is not present in the other synoptic gospes (It's in Matthew 16, I think), or in Paul can be somewhat effective.

Also attacking the idea that there needs to be an infallible authority if there is Revelation

Reena

Not conservative Catholics. I don't know any fundamentalists (yay Canada!), but the hardcore Catholics I know are extremely intolerant.

I recently gave one of my Catholic friends Newman's quote which is as follows: "THe Catholic Churh holds it better for the sun and moon to drop from heaven, for the earth to fail, and for all the many millions on it to die of starvation in extremest agony, as far as temporal affliction goes, than that one soul, I will not say, should be lost, but should commit one single venial sin" (A note to non-Catholics: venial sins are little sins, you could constantly commit venial sins, never repent, and go to heaven by way of purgatory.)

And he was genuinely excited about it! Made sure he wrote it down correctly and said he agreed with it. (And my friend is a very decent person, he simply knows what the Church teaches and firmly believes it.)

Plus, isn't that Catholic town being built in the States going to disallow the sale of birth control?

Opus Dei (orthodox Catholic organization) has their members mortify the flesh with a spiked chain worn aroudn the thigh for an hour a day and a whip.

Catholic traditions are scarier than protestant in my opinion. Protestantism began as freedom from Catholicism, which is saying a lot.

Chris Weimer

Well, yeah, but the town is in America. American Catholics are not normal Catholics. At all.