XOVER

Gen 2:17 : God told Adam, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Gen 3:3 : Eve told the Talking Snake: "But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."

Gen 3:4-5 : "And the [Talking Snake] said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

Hence, we find that the first lie ever told after the creation was when god told Adam he would surely die if he ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Because Adam and Eve did eat the fruit and they did not "surely die." Adam lived for 930 years, fathering many sons and daughters by Eve, who lived to be at least 130 years old herself.

So the Talking Snake told Adam and Eve the truth -- they would not surely die if they ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And they also gained the knowledge of good and evil, because of the Talking Snake's guidance, to boot.

And don't give me this, "Well, Adam and Eve wound up dying in the end so god was telling the truth" rationalization either. That flimsy excuse just ain't gonna cut it. The only reason Adam and Eve ever wound up dying, if you're going to believe the Genesis fairy tale, is because they simply didn't get around to "eating" of "the tree of life . . . and live forever." Gen 3:22 Thanks a lot Adam and Eve. Of course, god never destroyed the garden of eden so the "magic life forever tree" is still out there in Turkey, Iraq, Iran somewhere. Who needs heaven, just find the magic tree. Uh-huh. I believe that, too.

It's a real shame when it turns out that the one the fundamentalist Christains call "Satan" -- the Talking Snake -- is the truthteller, and the one the fundamentalists call "God", is the liar. God just couldn't tell Adam and Eve the truth? What's up with that? It's pretty dang sad when the truth is perverted into the lie, and the lie perverted into the truth. Perhaps this story is simply prophecy of current day neocon rule in America? Or is Nazi Germany a more appropriate subject of the prophecy?

And if god was going to flat-out lie to Adam and Eve like he did, at least god could have warned Adam and Eve not to listen to the Talking Snake that lived in the garden, even if the Talking Snake did tell the truth. But oh no. Instead God had a temper tantrum at getting caught in his lie, turned peevish, and stuck every innocent child after Adam and Eve with "original sin" at the moment our father's sperm enters mama's egg, even though none of us ate any fruit from any tree in any garden of eden. Now, that's some real divine justice there, folks. Real moral. Real ethical. Perfect story to found morality on. Not.

It is quite odd to me that fundamentalists piously claim that no one can lead a moral or ethical life unless the person believes in the Bible, willfully ignoring that the Bible is chock full of god lying, changing his mind, and demonstrating the worst moral relativism conceivable. Just two quick examples of fundamentalist "morality."

Incest. It's ok -- even encouraged -- to practice incest for hundreds of years until God changes his mind in Leviticus, and only then is incest forbidden. Personally, I'd rather be descended from hominoids by natural selection, than from brothers and sisters, fathers and daughters, mothers and sons, aunts and uncles, etc., etc., fornicating like rabbits with each other, night and day, for hundreds and hundreds of years. I mean, a fundamentalist might be the product of his ancestor-daddy screwing his ancestor-daughter somewhere down the line, but we didn't have that kind of morality in our family. And in the perverse minds of the fundamentalists, this is what passes as a perfect example of their god's "perfect morality."

And what about Abraham telling people his wife is his sister? Abraham's such a wimp he's afraid somebody might kill him over his wife's beauty, so he whores his wife out to have sex with the Pharoah. Is this how we want to teach to our little boys to treat their wives, whore them out? "But only, son, if your wife is really really pretty -- you can't whore out a dog ugly wife." Hmmm. Perhaps the Abraham story is simply a prophecy of prostitution being legal in Clark County, Nevada? Another amazing prophecy of the Bible is revealed! Two uncovered prophecies in one thread! Hallelujah, all praise to Jesus!

While it does have its poignant passages, such as the awe-inspiring beatitudes, overall the Bible has to be the single worst book to teach anybody "morality" or "ethics" that has ever been written. And all the rest of humanity is stuck with the truly idiotic notion of "original sin", all because two make-believe people are supposed to have listened to a Talking Snake? Which means that all fundamentalist Christian morality emanates from a conversation with a Talking Snake? Think about that for a moment -- take it in. Fundamentalist morality is based upon a conversation with a Talking Snake!

And the whole world is supposed to believe that this Talking Snake fairy tale actually happened? Or go straight to hell? The whole idea is patently absurd, and would be hilarious if it weren't that millions upon millions of people through the ages have been tortured and killed as a direct consquence of the persistence of literalist Christianity.

Your thoughts?

philbar

The death of the tree was spiritual death do to God's wrath in Hell.

Revelation 21:8 - But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

God did not lie. Unfortunately, you have bought into the lie the snake started in the Garden.

Furthermore, I wouldn't be so quick to conclude that it was Satan that deceived them but rather their own intellect. They probably saw a snake or similar creature eating the fruit and thought, "hey, that creature didn't die". So they concluded that they could probably eat of it too and be fine. The bad thing for them is that God commanded them not to do it, so in doing so...they sealed their doom in Hell.

Also, all your remarks on Abraham lieing has nothing to do with God. God didn't command him to lie. You are mistaken.

XOVER

The "big body roast" of Revelation. Now there's a great example of perverted fundamentalist morality. "Believe as we do or we're all gonna sit up in heaven and watch you burn forever." Or maybe just on Sundays? As a sort of entertainment? Man, sick stuff, your make believe hell. Which, BTW, didn't even exist in Jewish theology until after the rebuilding of the Temple. Revelation is the most immoral of all the books of the Bible -- no wonder it barely made it into the Bible in the first place. Worst decision of all-time, too.

And think about this. If fundamentalists ever come back into political power, they won't hesitate for a moment to torture people in this world all over again, like they have over and over in the past, because after all, they are trying to bring folks to the Lord. And torturing folks in this world won't last long -- they'll die relatively quickly -- but the torture in the next world is for eternity. So torture will be implemented again in this world since it gets people "saved." Sick, but it's what fundamentalists will do. If they can grab the reigns of political power. And all in the name of the immoral fundamentalist sky daddy.

Go to any Rapture board right now, and you can read post after post of "vile" fundamentalists publicly praying oh so mightily, so self-righteously for death, destruction, and war in the middle east. Are you one of these?

Sexually immoral? You mean Abraham? How about Lot's daughter?

Magic arts? You mean Jesus? Commanding "devils" out of people who were simply mentally ill. Or do you believe the mentally ill are filled with devils? BTW, the Bible also teaches that commanding "devils" out of people is pointless because they just jump right back in, plus more of them, worse than ever. Guess Jesus forgot all about that.

God did not lie? Well, there's one lie -- the first big lie -- right there in Genesis. And there are other lies upon lies, straight out of the mouth of God, right there in your Bible. Pick up your Bible and read it for a change. Really, it's ok to read the Bible. Try something other than the ignorance that's written in Revelation and the Acts. You want a devil? Try the "apostle Paul."

Abraham lying? You mean about whoring his wife out? You think the point I was trying to make was Abraham was lying about his wife being his sister? You missed the point. But think upon this because the lesson is even worse than Abraham lying. Abraham convinced his wife to lie. And then Abraham whored his wife out. The main point is whoring out his wife, though. Jeez.

DBT

What does "spiritual death" actually mean? What are the consequences?

philbar

Cease to exist...exactly what you believe happens when you die. The only problem is that God's wrath is poured out on you before you die. Quite painful and agonizing. Hell is only eternal for Satan and his followers.

XOVER - Noboby ever said what Abraham did was OK or moral. Why don't you go play with your straw man some where else...it gets rather boring watching you build him up and tear him down again. Despite what you may think, Christians are not perfect. Things like the Spanish Inquisition just go to show you have evil "christians" can be at times. The only perfect Christian you should be criticizing is Jesus. Until you are able to create an argument against his morals, I suggest you stay quite.

DrBolus

Why do so many christians seem to ignore what he did then. Didn't he throw the money lenders out of the temple yet everywhere there seems to be people making money out of him. The same seems to apply with the whole love your nieghbour bit. I recon that if you really seriously think you should live like jesus you should avoid most people who call themselves christian like the plague.

XOVER

My straw man, cowboy? It's your Bible. It's your Fundamentalists that say it's exactly perfect, no contradictions, perfect morality. If you're not a Fundamentalist, good for you. But if you are a Fundamentalist, then don't "straw man" me about Abraham.

As for Jesus, I gave you an example above -- lying about "devils" being the cause of mental illness. Obviously Jesus has no clue about the causes of mental illness, yet you claim him to be God. How "moral" is it for Jesus to claim to heal a man of "devils," by driving the imaginary "devils" from a mentally ill person into a bunch of sheep some poor sheepherder owns, and then driving the whole lot of sheep over a cliff? I notice the Bible doesn't tell us how the poor sheepherder felt about losing his flock of sheep. I imagine you don't give a rat's ass that the sheepherder was likely to have been financially devastated.

And I can give you many more examples of Jesus "morality". Like not really wanting to heal Gentiles at all, for example, because they are "like dogs." Do you know where to find that scripture, philbar? Is that a moral belief, philbar, not wanting to heal someone because of their religious convictions? You tell me. I imagine you'd agree that Christain doctors ought not to help Muslims because those Muslims might be terrorists, huh? Don't feel bad because that's what Jesus says, too.

There's absolutely nothing to demonstrate that Christians are any more moral than any other group of people on the earth. Hence, there's no reason to believe in the Christain sky daddies (not the plural) any more than the Greek mountain daddies.

Pull your head out of Revelation -- the most vile book ever written -- and actually read the rest of the Bible. Jesus? Perfect? Uhhhh, no. The man can't open his mouth in one verse without directly contradicting himself in another. And is that moral? Contradicting himself, confusing everybody, so not even Christains can agree what the devil Jesus meant?

philbar

If you are referring to tithing...you are mistaken. Jesus got angry because people were using God's house as a market place. Those people saw that everyone gathered around the Temple on the Sabbath so they figured they would try to make some money there. Jesus reclaimed the Sabbath as God's day.

The tithe was a requirement of the law in which all Israelites were give 10% of everything they earned and grew to the Tabernacle (Leviticus 27:30; Numbers 18:26; Deuteronomy 14:24; 2 Chronicles 31:5). Some understand the Old Testament tithe as a method of taxation to provide for the needs of the priests and Levites of the sacrificial system. The New Testament nowhere commands, or even recommends that Christians submit to a legalistic tithe system. Paul states that believers should set aside a portion of their income in order to support the church (1 Corinthians 16:1-2). Sometimes that means giving more than a tithe, sometime that may mean giving less than a tithe. It all depends on the ability of the Christian and the needs of the church.

philbar

Prove to me, devils don't exist and that they can't possess people.

In you strawman bible? HAHA

aa5874

It is possible that Adam and Eve are in heaven, if there is one. Read Genesis. According to Genesis, God was pleased with the offering of Abel, so it is likely that Adam and Eve could have made similar offerings. There was no spiritual death. Adam and Eve just had to offer up some sheep and some sheep fat, and God would respect them.

Genesis4:4, 'And Abel, he also brought of the firstlihgs of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and unto his offering'.

That's it!! Sheep meat and sheep fat and you and God are buddies. The snake was right!! Adam lived until he was 930 years and became like God, knowing good and evil, so Adam is no idiot, I think he is where Gods reside, in spiritual bliss.