Freethought & Rationalism Archive

la70119 · 04-01-2012, 02:44 PM

Actually, this is about Pompeii and possible evidence for a toehold of Christianity in that city in 79 CE.

First, let me warn you: this video was presented by an anonymous amateur Christian apologist who does NOT know that james tabor and Simcha jacobovici are, well, the flim-flam artists of the archaeological world. (yes, those two, of the Fishy Amphora Jar fame.)

Still, that should not necessarily detract from the findings.

There is a discussion of the Christianos graffito, which has faded into oblivion. Usually translated as: "Bovis listens to the Christians, cruel haters," the video cites Professor W. R. Newbold's interpretation that that which surrounds the word "Christianos" is transliterated Aramaic (Five Transliterated Aramaic Inscriptions). Jacobovici (ugh!) states the message is: "A strange mind has overtaken 'A', who is being held prisoner among the Christians."

Then the video discusses The House of the Baker. Among the items allegedly found therein are three graffiti and another evidence that the baker was Christian: a "Poinium Cherem," an apparent plastering over of a Priapean relief, a strange cross, and a Sator Square, matching another one in another part of town.

Well, James Tabor discusses the "Poinium Cherem," basically saying it was a curse graffito with the two stars being apotropaic: curse starswarding off some kind of evil. The words are supposed to be combined Greek and Aramaic meaning "Punish, blotting out:" in other words, smite completely. There is an independent discussion of this graffito at the Bryn Mawr Classical Review: unlike Tabor, the discussion indicates two words could just mean "flock" and "vineyard," respectively.

Next is the strange "cross." A very strange cross, indeed. The video editors do not give a reference of where it came from or even any independent citation that it actually WAS above oven, but they do show a book of inscription illustrations opened to the page where the cross was found. (6:00 in the vid) It is a very strange cross indeed. It is asymmetrical. The upright is shaped like a Club of Hercules with the stout end at the bottom and the transverse appears to be some kind of skillfully crafted plank, crafted with more care than Romans would have carred to lavish on a condemned criminal IMO.

And of course, the old standby: the Soter Square. Whether it was originally Christian is anyone's guess. The square translates as: Arepo the sower holds the wheels with effort. Pretty innocuous, eh? But eventually the Christians figured out that the word "tenet" formed a cross and that the whole thing was an amagram for a paternoster equilateral cross, with two A's and two O's left over. Alpha and Omega! Another such square, found on a column of a wrestling school in the town of Herculaneum [1], shows a fish symbol above the square.

Well it certainly looks like it's evidence for a toehold of Christianity in that small town. But what kind of Christianity??? It appears to have been not yet distinct from Judaism (except to regular Jews); it also appears to be also engaging in some kind of magic; and outsiders may have considered it to be a mind-control cult, perhaps a violent one.

And what conclusion may one draw from this for the development of the NT Canon? Were ANY of the NT books written at that date? And if so, did anyone in Pompeii know about it?

[1] Paul McKechnie, The First Christian Centuries, p. 67, ref. to Friend, 1996: 131.

Duvduv · 04-01-2012, 03:48 PM

I watched the video carefully and find a lot of wishful thinking in it. Why would the word cherem among Jews or Hebrew-speakers be in Latin characters? It makes no sense sense in context. Neither does the so-called graffiti wherein only one word that looks like Christian in Latin characters is legible among the scrawls. Then there are the crosses that could just as easily be phallus symbols or swords.
But a little bit here and a little bit there, and soon you have the entire Christian interpretation of history with no questions asked......

spin · 04-01-2012, 05:29 PM

I loved the speech synthesized narration. I guess no-one could keep a straight face reading the shite. There is no serious notion that we are seeing indications from different locations in Pompeii. The POINIUM CHEREM discussion is utter fancy, apparently totally based on the notion that there was a weird shaped cross found on the site, for there is nothing to suggest a christian source for the inscription which appears to be Jewish in nature.

The claim of the cross naturally draws a smile because the gospel Greek notion was a stake, ie Jesus was attached to a stake, not a cross and there is no trustworthy source for a cross symbol among early christians. There is mention of the use of the cross is found in the "Octavius" of Minucius Felix in chapter 9,

"Some say that they {christians} worship the virilia of their pontiff and priest,) and adore the nature, as it were, of their common parent. I know not whether these things are false; certainly suspicion is applicable to secret and nocturnal rites; and he who explains their ceremonies by reference to a man punished by extreme suffering for his wickedness, and to the deadly wood of the cross, appropriates fitting altars for reprobate and wicked men, that they may worship what they deserve."

However, in chapter 29 we find,

"Crosses, moreover, we neither worship nor wish for.... We assuredly see the sign of a cross, naturally, in the ship when it is carried along with swelling sails, when it glides forward with expanded oars; and when the military yoke is lifted up, it is the sign of a cross; and when a man adores God with a pure mind, with hands outstretched. Thus the sign of the cross either is sustained by a natural reason, or your own religion is formed with respect to it."

We must come to the charcoal graffito which disappeared two years after it was found in the 1860s, preserved only in two slightly variant hand drawings. The value of the inscription is thus untestable. There is no way to check the various hypothetical interpretations, of which only one is given in the video. I have the original book reviewed in the Bryn Mawr review (bought at Pompeii!) and it doesn't help any of the views in the video.

It is worth noting the footnote on p.171 of this book, which mentions:

the now-disappeared charcoal graffito including the word 'Christianos', which Beard (2008) dismisses as 'almost certainly a figment of pious imagination' (302).

(Of course, the reference to Beard is not supplied in the googlebook, so I can't check what beard was on about, but its impact is clear.)

la70119 · 04-02-2012, 04:41 AM

And as I now remember, it was Tabor and Jacobovici who said they were all found in the same house, so we know how much salt we have to take it with (a trainload full, stretching to infinity).

Well, it was a stab in the dark, to see what kind of Christians were in Pompeii because the "outsider" charcoal writing certainly did not make them look good (actually it portrayed them as the era's Scientologists or Moonies, bwahahahaha!) and the "insider" graffiti both lost and extant indicate that they indulged in magic and magical thinking.

And that "cross" shown in the video DID look phallic. I'll tell you an anecdote about the Hercules' Club: when Commodus designated himself as the Roman Hercules Augustus, he made coins with the inscription "Herculo Romano Augusto" (all abbreviated) with the Club of Hercules vertically oriented midway. Of course, somebody scratchittied it out in a bathhouse and had the club bisect the words so that the right-hand syllables of the words of the title read culo ano usto: "with a burn to the anal ring!" Hahahahaha. The Baker traded one obvious Phallic reference for another. I guess if these people really were Christians they must have believed Jesus Christ was impaled: fucked.

Of course, this sort of bizaare Christians at Pompeii would mean only one thing for the NT Canon in my opinion: it hadn't been written yet.

andrewcriddle · 04-02-2012, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

It is worth noting the footnote on p.171 of this book, which mentions:

the now-disappeared charcoal graffito including the word 'Christianos', which Beard (2008) dismisses as 'almost certainly a figment of pious imagination' (302).

(Of course, the reference to Beard is not supplied in the googlebook, so I can't check what beard was on about, but its impact is clear.)

See Pompeii by Beard.

Andrew Criddle

la70119 · 04-02-2012, 01:26 PM

Here's what Marc Monnier says in The Wonders of Pompeii about Roman augurs did when they laid out their temples.

Quote:

(Pg 41) The Romans built their temples in this wise: The augur—that is to say, the priest who read the future in the flight of birds—traced in the sky with his short staff a spacious square, which he then marked on the soil. Stakes were at once fixed along the four lines, and draperies were hung between the stakes. In the midst of this space, the area or inclosure of the temple, the augur marked out a cross—the augural cross, indicating the four cardinal points; the transverse lines fixed the limits of the cella; the point where the two branches met was the place for the door, and the first stone was deposited on the threshold. Numerous lighted lamps illuminated these ceremonies, after which the chief priest, the pontifex maximus, consecrated the area, and from that moment it became settled and immovable. If it crumbled, it must be rebuilt on the same spot, and the least change made, even should it be to enlarge it, would be regarded as a profanation. Thus had the dwelling of the god that rises before us at the extremity of the Forum been consecrated.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/17290...-h/17290-h.htm

I remember reading elsewhere about another cross which was conspicuously visible from the street inside the house of a well-to-do, politically oriented citizen, yet the traditional guardian snakes were still extant on the inside of the entry. Unfortunately I lost the bookmark. Needless to say, it can scarcely be called Christian and I don't think it was.

la70119 · 04-02-2012, 01:32 PM

I found it again!

Quote:

10. Private passage and posticum. On the pier, between the two doors, was a painting representing one of the guardian serpents, of which we shall speak fully in describing the House of Sallust, by the side of which is a projecting brick, to receive a lamp lighted in honour of the Dii Custodes. This painting, from its situation, could only be seen by persons within the house but on the opposite wall there was a cross worked in bas-relief upon a panel of white stucco, in such a way as to be visible to all passers. On this symbol Mazois has founded a conjecture that the owner of the shop may have been a Christian. His words are to the following purport :

Quote:

" Though the fast [first?] Christians have represented this symbol of Christianity under the form of a Greek, or equibrachial cross, and the limbs of this cross are of unequal length, I cannot bring myself to see merely some unknown instrument in it, as many persons have done, to whom I have shown this drawing of it. In truth, it is difficult not to recognize in it the Latin cross, which would be nothing extraordinary, since Pompeii was not destroyed till the first year of the reign of Titus. But if it be a cross, how can we explain the juxtaposition, the mixture of this symbol of a new and pure religion with the images and practices of one of the most absurd superstitions of antiquity? It is hard to conceive that the same man could at once bow before the cross of Christ, and pay homage to Janus, Ferculus, Limentinus, Cardin, the deities of the thresholds and the hinges of doors; still more that he should adore it in combination with that emblem of an incomprehensible worship which is close at band. Perhaps at this time the cross was a mysterious hieroglyphic of meaning unknown, except to those who had embraced the Christian faith; which, placed here among the symbols of paganism, as if in testimony of gratitude, informed the faithful that the truth had here found an asylum with a poor man, under the safeguard of all the popular superstitions."

On the probability of this conjecture we shall offer no opinion, leaving it to the decision of those who are best acquainted with the minutiae of religious history. If admitted, it would carry the use of the cross to an earlier period than any we believe to which it has yet been traced. But to return from this digression.

http://italy.library4history.org/Dye...D-SALLUST.html

But then again the Cross had a precedent in both pagan and Imperial religions and they called it a tropaeum. (Justin Martyr, 1 Apology 55; Tertullian, Apology 16; Minucius Felix, Octavian 29; Francesco Carotta Jesus Was Caesar ch. 3 "Crux")

I doubt very much that the Cross in the House of Panza and Sallust was in the least Christian. If anything, it was Panhellenic or Caesarian. This of course casts doubts on whether ANY of the crosses found within Pompeii or Herculaneum were Christian.

spin · 04-02-2012, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

It is worth noting the footnote on p.171 of this book, which mentions:

the now-disappeared charcoal graffito including the word 'Christianos', which Beard (2008) dismisses as 'almost certainly a figment of pious imagination' (302).

(Of course, the reference to Beard is not supplied in the googlebook, so I can't check what beard was on about, but its impact is clear.)

See Pompeii by Beard.

Andrew Criddle

Thanks, Andrew. When I looked at the link, Google wouldn't show me the page--"unavailable for reading". But I've at least got the bib.

04-01-2012, 02:44 PM	#1
la70119 Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: The only Carribean port not in the Tropics. Posts: 359	This is not about Bart Ehrman. Actually, this is about Pompeii and possible evidence for a toehold of Christianity in that city in 79 CE. First, let me warn you: this video was presented by an anonymous amateur Christian apologist who does NOT know that james tabor and Simcha jacobovici are, well, the flim-flam artists of the archaeological world. (yes, those two, of the Fishy Amphora Jar fame.) Still, that should not necessarily detract from the findings. There is a discussion of the Christianos graffito, which has faded into oblivion. Usually translated as: "Bovis listens to the Christians, cruel haters," the video cites Professor W. R. Newbold's interpretation that that which surrounds the word "Christianos" is transliterated Aramaic (Five Transliterated Aramaic Inscriptions). Jacobovici (ugh!) states the message is: "A strange mind has overtaken 'A', who is being held prisoner among the Christians." Then the video discusses The House of the Baker. Among the items allegedly found therein are three graffiti and another evidence that the baker was Christian: a "Poinium Cherem," an apparent plastering over of a Priapean relief, a strange cross, and a Sator Square, matching another one in another part of town. Well, James Tabor discusses the "Poinium Cherem," basically saying it was a curse graffito with the two stars being apotropaic: curse starswarding off some kind of evil. The words are supposed to be combined Greek and Aramaic meaning "Punish, blotting out:" in other words, smite completely. There is an independent discussion of this graffito at the Bryn Mawr Classical Review: unlike Tabor, the discussion indicates two words could just mean "flock" and "vineyard," respectively. Next is the strange "cross." A very strange cross, indeed. The video editors do not give a reference of where it came from or even any independent citation that it actually WAS above oven, but they do show a book of inscription illustrations opened to the page where the cross was found. (6:00 in the vid) It is a very strange cross indeed. It is asymmetrical. The upright is shaped like a Club of Hercules with the stout end at the bottom and the transverse appears to be some kind of skillfully crafted plank, crafted with more care than Romans would have carred to lavish on a condemned criminal IMO. And of course, the old standby: the Soter Square. Whether it was originally Christian is anyone's guess. The square translates as: Arepo the sower holds the wheels with effort. Pretty innocuous, eh? But eventually the Christians figured out that the word "tenet" formed a cross and that the whole thing was an amagram for a paternoster equilateral cross, with two A's and two O's left over. Alpha and Omega! Another such square, found on a column of a wrestling school in the town of Herculaneum [1], shows a fish symbol above the square. Well it certainly looks like it's evidence for a toehold of Christianity in that small town. But what kind of Christianity??? It appears to have been not yet distinct from Judaism (except to regular Jews); it also appears to be also engaging in some kind of magic; and outsiders may have considered it to be a mind-control cult, perhaps a violent one. And what conclusion may one draw from this for the development of the NT Canon? Were ANY of the NT books written at that date? And if so, did anyone in Pompeii know about it? [1] Paul McKechnie, The First Christian Centuries, p. 67, ref. to Friend, 1996: 131.

04-01-2012, 05:29 PM	#3
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	I loved the speech synthesized narration. I guess no-one could keep a straight face reading the shite. There is no serious notion that we are seeing indications from different locations in Pompeii. The POINIUM CHEREM discussion is utter fancy, apparently totally based on the notion that there was a weird shaped cross found on the site, for there is nothing to suggest a christian source for the inscription which appears to be Jewish in nature. The claim of the cross naturally draws a smile because the gospel Greek notion was a stake, ie Jesus was attached to a stake, not a cross and there is no trustworthy source for a cross symbol among early christians. There is mention of the use of the cross is found in the "Octavius" of Minucius Felix in chapter 9, "Some say that they {christians} worship the virilia of their pontiff and priest,) and adore the nature, as it were, of their common parent. I know not whether these things are false; certainly suspicion is applicable to secret and nocturnal rites; and he who explains their ceremonies by reference to a man punished by extreme suffering for his wickedness, and to the deadly wood of the cross, appropriates fitting altars for reprobate and wicked men, that they may worship what they deserve." However, in chapter 29 we find, "Crosses, moreover, we neither worship nor wish for.... We assuredly see the sign of a cross, naturally, in the ship when it is carried along with swelling sails, when it glides forward with expanded oars; and when the military yoke is lifted up, it is the sign of a cross; and when a man adores God with a pure mind, with hands outstretched. Thus the sign of the cross either is sustained by a natural reason, or your own religion is formed with respect to it." We must come to the charcoal graffito which disappeared two years after it was found in the 1860s, preserved only in two slightly variant hand drawings. The value of the inscription is thus untestable. There is no way to check the various hypothetical interpretations, of which only one is given in the video. I have the original book reviewed in the Bryn Mawr review (bought at Pompeii!) and it doesn't help any of the views in the video. It is worth noting the footnote on p.171 of this book, which mentions: the now-disappeared charcoal graffito including the word 'Christianos', which Beard (2008) dismisses as 'almost certainly a figment of pious imagination' (302). (Of course, the reference to Beard is not supplied in the googlebook, so I can't check what beard was on about, but its impact is clear.)

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04-01-2012, 03:48 PM	#2
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	I watched the video carefully and find a lot of wishful thinking in it. Why would the word cherem among Jews or Hebrew-speakers be in Latin characters? It makes no sense sense in context. Neither does the so-called graffiti wherein only one word that looks like Christian in Latin characters is legible among the scrawls. Then there are the crosses that could just as easily be phallus symbols or swords. But a little bit here and a little bit there, and soon you have the entire Christian interpretation of history with no questions asked......

04-02-2012, 04:41 AM	#4
la70119 Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: The only Carribean port not in the Tropics. Posts: 359	And as I now remember, it was Tabor and Jacobovici who said they were all found in the same house, so we know how much salt we have to take it with (a trainload full, stretching to infinity). Well, it was a stab in the dark, to see what kind of Christians were in Pompeii because the "outsider" charcoal writing certainly did not make them look good (actually it portrayed them as the era's Scientologists or Moonies, bwahahahaha!) and the "insider" graffiti both lost and extant indicate that they indulged in magic and magical thinking. And that "cross" shown in the video DID look phallic. I'll tell you an anecdote about the Hercules' Club: when Commodus designated himself as the Roman Hercules Augustus, he made coins with the inscription "Herculo Romano Augusto" (all abbreviated) with the Club of Hercules vertically oriented midway. Of course, somebody scratchittied it out in a bathhouse and had the club bisect the words so that the right-hand syllables of the words of the title read culo ano usto: "with a burn to the anal ring!" Hahahahaha. The Baker traded one obvious Phallic reference for another. I guess if these people really were Christians they must have believed Jesus Christ was impaled: fucked. Of course, this sort of bizaare Christians at Pompeii would mean only one thing for the NT Canon in my opinion: it hadn't been written yet.

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