vid

What does Jesus mean when he is speaking about "Church" (for example Matthew 18:15)? Surely there was none by that time. Also, what greek word is used and what things can it mean?

ApostateAbe

The word for church, "ekklēsia," occurs only twice in any of the gospels, and those two times are in the Gospel of Matthew--Matthew 16:15 and Matthew 18:17. But there are plenty of other uses of the word in the Epistles and Revelation, and you are right that churches did not exist in the time of Jesus' life, and it is sort of out of place in the context of the character of Jesus' ministry, so I find it likely to be a later Christian interpolation, and those two passages in Matthew might come from the M source (passages that are found in the gospel of Matthew and nowhere else).

DCHindley

A web site I looked at summarized the matter of the use in Greek city-states and as used in the Lxx translation of the Jewish scriptures.

Ekklesia was used in the Septuagint (LXX), the Greek translation of the Old Testament to described the assembly of Israel for covenant-making at Sinai (Deuteronomy 4:10; 9:10; 18:16), for the dedication of the temple (1 Kings 8:14, 22, 55, 65), for public repentance, for dedication of the city after the exile (Nehemiah 5:7, 13; 7:5, 66), and for other religious and national purposes (Judges 20:2). At times, it refers to a permanent institution of Israelite social and political life (Deuteronomy 23:1). By taking over the LXX usage, the church was claiming to be the true assembly of Yahweh, the fulfillment of the Sinai assembly, the people who had returned from exile, and the new nation of Israel.

In the Greek world, however, ekklesia referred to the assembly of citizens of the polis. When Aristotle spoke of the sovereign "assembly" in Greek democracy, he spoke of the ekklesia. When any important business faced the city-state, the citizens would gather in the theater or other public space as the ekklesia to deliberate. By taking this word to describe the church, the apostles were making clear that the church is not another "sect" or cult that existed under the umbrella of the polis. She is an alternative governing body for the city and the beginning of a new city.

http://www.leithart.com/archives/000367.php

DCH

vid

Thank you

mountainman

The next section in this article continues with the specifics ....

In reference to the first question
We do know that the "City of God" was described in two different ways
by early christians. Eusesbius describes one in his "Life of Constantine"
and Augustine paints the other picture ---- both very late.

In reference to the second question the most powerful answers
seem to resonate in the Codex Theodosianus with Neronian laws
such as "Religious priviliges are reserved for christians".

It is clear that quite a range of common terms were appropriated
by the authors of the new testament. However, despite the
reference to the "Greek assemblies", in his "History" Eusebius
makes it reasonably clear that he wished his readers to understand
that the early christians before his times had physical church buildings.

I am not sure that you can separate the Church in the NT from the
Church in Eusebius' Historia Ecclesiastica.

Huon

In english, "Church" can mean either a local assembly of believers, or the building in which these believers have assemblies, or the hierarchy organising the local assemblies of believers in an unique complex organisation. In french, same triple meaning.

However, the Church in the NT is the church of the second century, without a complex organisation, except local bishops (episcopos), and possibly deacons (for the money).

The Church of Eusebius is the church of the fourth century. The bishops appoint priests (presbyteros), sometimes without any consultation of the local christians. The distinction between the lay persons and the clerics has been defined. A bishop is an important person, who cannot be named by the simple local organisation, but he must be named by consent of some other important bishops (Rome, Antioch, Byzance, Alexandria, Carthage, ...).
See Hippolyte of Rome, Cyprian of Carthage, Origen.